Tower for 17-pdr

[servicepub (RIP)]

I read that the Cdn Army in NWE used the American 2½-ton 6 x 6 lorry as the tower for the 17-pdr A-Tk gun. Can anyone confirm this and can anyone post a photo (ideally with archives reference number.)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by servicepub
I read that the Cdn Army in NWE used the American 2½-ton 6 x 6 lorry as the tower for the 17-pdr A-Tk gun.

Clive, as per my posting in "British GMC?", it seems the CCKW-352 in British service was definitely used as a tractor for the the Bofors 40-mm AA gun, whilst 17- and/or 6-pdr AT guns seem to have been towed as well. As far as I can ascertain, no 25-pdr field guns were towed by Commonwealth CCKW-352's during WW2.

[Larry Hayward]

A photo in the IWM archives in London, (NA7702) shows a line of GMC CCKW-353 (or similar GMC CCKW 352's) towing Mk I 17pdrs, waiting for the attack over the River Volturno, Italy, Oct 1943. The photo shows only the rear of the trucks, so I couldn't say which model they were. The rear vehicle carries the unit serial 64 and a vehicle number '53099???. The vehicles and guns are painted in a light colour over which a darker grey or green has been painted in a disruptive pattern. I doubt the unit was Canadian but at least it confirms the GMC's use as an Artillery Tractor. From various photos it is apparent that in the Sicilian & Italian Campaign the 17pdr AT gun was towed intially by the Morris Quad and Ford WOT 8 (seen towing a 17pdr 'Mk II' on 25pdr carriage) then GMC's until finally the M5A1 & M9A1 half tracks became available.

Larry Hayward

MVT member 11001

[Don Dingwall]

Clive:
We did not use any US sourced deuces in any capacity until after WW2.

Towers for 17 PDR:
-Ram (turretless)
-halftracks
-the occasional quad

Don

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
A photo in the IWM archives in London, (NA7702) shows a line of GMC CCKW-353 (or similar GMC CCKW 352's) towing Mk I 17pdrs, waiting for the attack over the River Volturno, Italy, Oct 1943. The photo shows only the rear of the trucks, so I couldn't say which model they were. The rear vehicle carries the unit serial 64 and a vehicle number '53099???.

Larry, Charles Bogart in 'The 93rd Anti-Tank Regiment' (AFV News, Vol.32, No.1, January-April 1997, p.8) mentions two batteries of the 93rd Anti-Tank Regiment in Italy, "receiving U.S. 2½-ton trucks in place of the British tractors used for towing their guns" in August 1943. He noted that in June '43 the 93rd converted to a new establishment of four batteries, one self-propelled and three towed, of which one had 17-pounders with Mark II carriages and the other two 6-pounders. Could the picture you mention show units of the 93rd Anti-Tank Regiment?

Also, according to Andy Talbot, Field Marshal Lord Carver's Book of the War in Italy; 1943-1945 there is a photo of 352's (or 353's) towing 17 pdr A/T guns through Scarfati on 29 September 1943. It claims they are of 65th AT Regt RA (Norfolk Yeomanry).

The vehicles and guns are painted in a light colour over which a darker grey or green has been painted in a disruptive pattern. I doubt the unit was Canadian but at least it confirms the GMC's use as an Artillery Tractor.

This could well be the camouflage scheme introduced in Italy in April 1943, which used bold patterns of black, or SCC7 (a dark olive green), over a base of SCC.5 "Light Mud". Reportedly, this scheme was used by the British only, which would indicate the trucks in your picture are British.

Regards,
Hanno

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Also, according to Andy Talbot, Field Marshal Lord Carver's Book of the War in Italy; 1943-1945 there is a photo of 352's (or 353's) towing 17 pdr A/T guns through Scarfati on 29 September 1943. It claims they are of 65th AT Regt RA (Norfolk Yeomanry)

Hanno;

The picture in question:

Cheers

[Larry Hayward]

The photo in the IWM archives shows 17pdrs on proper carriages, not the makeshift MkII on the 25 pdr gun carriage.

The unit serial 64 was used by AT Regts RA in an Armoured Division, MEF from October 1942 so this suggests a unit in the IWM photo had been in North Africa, such as the 65th AT Regt RA of the 7th Armoured Division. Many units in Italy used out of date markings! Also the vehicle seen in Scarfati has identical stowage on its 17pdr to one seen in the IWM photo, none of which are the same!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Mark, thanks for the pic!

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
The unit serial 64 was used by AT Regts RA in an Armoured Division, MEF from October 1942 so this suggests a unit in the IWM photo had been in North Africa, such as the 65th AT Regt RA of the 7th Armoured Division. Many units in Italy used out of date markings! Also the vehicle seen in Scarfati has identical stowage on its 17pdr to one seen in the IWM photo, none of which are the same!

Larry, so it could be NA7702 shows units of the 65th AT Regt RA as well? But the picture taken at Scarfati does not seem to show the light colour with darker grey or green disruptive colour sheme.

Thanks!
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by servicepub
I read that the Cdn Army in NWE used the American 2½-ton 6 x 6 lorry as the tower for the 17-pdr A-Tk gun. Can anyone confirm this and can anyone post a photo (ideally with archives reference number.)

In REPORT NO. 141 HISTORICAL SECTION CANADIAN MILITARY HEADQUARTERS I read it was the intention to use the American 2½-ton 6 x 6 lorry, but it was found they were not available.

H.

The question of a tower for the [17-pdr] gun received considerable attention. Within 21 Army Group the policy was adopted of fitting all tanks with 17-pr towing books for emergency use. In March 1944 it was intended to use entirely wheeled vehicles as standard towers, probably the American 2½-ton 6 x 6 lorry. These were found not to be available, and various vehicles were used. 6 Cdn A Tk Regt of 2 Cdn Corps used modified Ram tanks specially for this purpose. In Italy the anti-tank regiments of 5 Cdn Armd Div and 1 Cdn Corps used modified Crusader tanks. Other units used the Field Artillery Tractor. Half-Tracks were also used.

[Larry Hayward]

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
A photo in the IWM archives in London, (NA7702) shows a line of GMC CCKW-353 (or similar GMC CCKW 352's) towing Mk I 17pdrs, waiting for the attack over the River Volturno, Italy, Oct 1943. The photo shows only the rear of the trucks, so I couldn't say which model they were. The rear vehicle carries the unit serial 64 and a vehicle number '53099???. The vehicles and guns are painted in a light colour over which a darker grey or green has been painted in a disruptive pattern. I doubt the unit was Canadian but at least it confirms the GMC's use as an Artillery Tractor.

This is the photo

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
This is the photo

Excellent, thanks!

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

The Australian Army used the CCKW-353 in Korea as a 17-pdr gun tractor. Note the roundel!
Search the AWM database for "17 Pounder anti tank guns" during the Korean war period a couple more pics.

ID Number: P01813.572
Maker: Robertson, Ian S
Summary: Kure, Japan, 1950-09-27. A 6x6 truck pulling a 17-pounder anti-tank gun waits on Kure docks to be hoisted aboard the United States Navy troopship Aiken Victory (not in view). The truck and artillery piece belong to the 3rd Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment (3RAR), which is about to depart on the vessel for Pusan and the war in Korea. Awaiting their turn to be loaded aboard the ship are another 17-pounder gun (left) and a number of jeeps and trucks. The buildings (left to right) at rear comprise: the transport shed for the 21st Advanced Ordnance Depot; the traffic shed for the BCOF Base Ordnance Depot (formerly for the 21st Advanced Ordnance Depot); the offices and stores of the Docks Operating Company, and also the BCOF Stationery Stores. Rising in the background is a terraced hill near the village of Miya Hara. (Donor I. Robertson)