Towing a mb willys jeep

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

I am seeking advice from my fellow MLU's regarding the possibility of towing my Jeep. I recently sold my Jeep trailer due to lack of storage space at home and the cost of off site storage was becoming too expensive.

I was sitting on the throne this morning (that is where I get most of my best ideas) and thought I would look into the feasability of manufacturing an "A" frame and towing my Jeep to shows. But before I get too excited I thought I would run the idea past my fellow MLU friends as there could be someone out there who may be towing their Jeep and able to advise.

I know I would have to tow the Jeep with the Transmission and Transfer both in nuetral. However I am not sure how fast I could travel or for how far I could tow the Jeep behind my 4x4 without causing mechanical damage to my Jeep. . Has anyone done this before and better still can it be done. I am looking at the idea of towing the Jeep to shows like Corowa, which is a long way from home and saving the expensive cost of trailer hire. I have seen photos of Jeeps with "A" frames attached and wonder if it can safely been done.

Cheers

Tony

[Euan McDonald]

Tony,
In Victoria we drive our jeeps to shows and Corowa, some of us even drive them around Australia for fun.
If you wanted to tow it 80 km/h is quite alright.

[rob love]

Personally, I leave the transmission in high gear and the transfer case in neutral. The transfer case will lubricate, since the driven shafts are under the oil. However, with the transmission in neutral, there can be some centrifugal spinning through the transfer case, and there is no oil thrown by the upper output shaft. It is possible to burn out the little rollers between the input and output shaft. With the transmission in gear, there is no spinning of the gears in the transmission.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Tony,
Before you get too excited about "A" framing you may want to check your State regs. Most (Aus.) States require a licensed driver to be behind the wheel in the towed vehicle.
(Queensland is one exception). This does get to be quite a lonely and boring job....
Many years ago we towed a Buggy with a fixed tow point on the bull bar, and the front wheels removed.
A two wheel towing Dolly may be an option, but with all the money you have saved in trailer storage fee's the occaisional trailer hire may be affordable?
Rich.

[Ian L]

I tow the Jeep every where behind my Motorcaravan with a braked A Frame, although in the UK I hope this helps ?

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

I really appreciate your time and effort in assisting me with my idea of A Frame style towing. I had only ever seen them used by Camper Vans towing a small vehicle on an A Frame. I have also seen some trades persons towing their private vehicle behind a tractor or Road scaper. This is what got me thinking of using one for my Jeep. It seemed a simple thing to do and elliminate my storage problems. But as I started receiving replys from you guys I thought I might be opening a can of worms, prompting me to start doing a bit of reseach before I put it in the, Too Hard Basket.

EUAN. I would love to drive my Jeep to functions, but for long distances it would take too long and be too uncomfortable . Though I do love driving my Jeep whenever I can.

ROB. Some good ideas, I never thought of the turning parts.

RICH. Your answer prompted me to download the Government Fact Sheet on A Frame towing. I feel I can work within the legislation, so I have not yet been detered. You only require a second person behind the wheel of vehicles being towed in cases such as using a Tow rope or Cable. With an A Frame there is no need for someone in the towed vehicle. The max. speed limit is 100 Klm per hr.

IAN. I love your set up and that is the ultimate way to go. I wonder if you could answer a few questions I have.

1. What do you do with the Jeep when towing, do you leave your transmission in high gear as suggested by Rob.

2. How does you braking system work. I was thinking of attaching a cable or rod to the Jeep brake pedal and using the mechanical braking system on the A Frame towball.

3. Have you experienced any problems using the A Frame, I think backing could be "interesting", is the A Frame commonly used by others or are you a trail blazer. I love the idea.

DIANNA. The Fact Sheet I downloaded refers to the "Australian Road Rules" so I suspect it would cover all states and Territories. They suggest that a copy of the Fact Sheet regarding A Frame Towing be kept in your vehicle at all times, I suspect this is in case an uninformed Police Officer pulls you over. The A Frame must be built to the "Australian Design Rule 62. and must also have safety chains attached. The towing gross Vehicle mass ratio must not exceed 4.5 tonnes and use the formula ratio of 3.5:1 towed mass. The overal length of both vehicles must not exceed an overall length of 19.0 metres.

I will conduct some more enquiries into the feasability of an A Frame against using a trailer. I have contacted a company who manufacture A Frames and nearly choked and was lost for words when he quoted me the cost of their A Frames at $3,500 plus. I asked if it was gold plated and said "No Thank You".

Thanks guys for getting back to me. I am still waiting to hear from any others who may be using an A Frame.

Cheers

Tony.

[Ian L]

Hi Tony

There are several companies in the UK that make the 'A' frames and fit them to most small car, the kit fitted is about £900 (not much good to yourself) but I bought mine on ebay Spain for £250 and made the brackets myself.
It works on an overun hitch connected to quick release cable which pulls the brake pedal down.
Because of the way an 'A' frame is connected ridged to the front bumper it is not possiable to reverse more than a few feet before the axels go in different directions.
The transmission lever is left in neutral but I am intending to fit free wheeling hubs to the front & blanking plates to the rear half shafts for long journeys to same axel wear.

Hope this was of interest, Ian

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Ian L

Hi Tony

There are several companies in the UK that make the 'A' frames and fit them to most small car, the kit fitted is about £900 (not much good to yourself) but I bought mine on ebay Spain for £250 and made the brackets myself.
It works on an overun hitch connected to quick release cable which pulls the brake pedal down.
Because of the way an 'A' frame is connected ridged to the front bumper it is not possiable to reverse more than a few feet before the axels go in different directions.
The transmission lever is left in neutral but I am intending to fit free wheeling hubs to the front & blanking plates to the rear half shafts for long journeys to same axel wear.

Hope this was of interest, Ian

Thanks for the update Ian. Surely that is the way to go, I am definately more interested now. I have contacted our Government Transport department and they are sending me all the do's and dont's, so once I know what is required I will know where I stand.

Cheers

Tony

[Robin Craig]

Dear Tony,

I do quite a bit of trailering and towing and have some experience of A bars.

If it saves you a brown trousers moment may I point out a flaw in the process.

The vehicle being towed relies on enough friction between its front tyres and the road for them to turn and follow the towing vehicle. Should the weather change and you run into rain or snow you now have a film between those tyres and the road.

Now the following vehicle has the ability to overcome the friction and instead of following you around a corner will go straight ahead. I would honestly say this is a feeling and experience you need to be aware of as it has the potential to "push" the rear of the towing vehicle sideways.

Trust me it can happen and it is not pleasant.

Also dont forget that for the most part an A frame will mean that it is very near impossible to back up in most occasions.

Regards

Robin

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

This project is now becoming very interesting. I have heard of living on the edge. Robin, A towed vehicle with a mind of it's own, now that is something, I will have to put my dog, "Mr Tibbs" in the drivers seat of the towed vehicle and teach him to steer the Jeep. Dianaa, Backing must be a cause for concern as in the State regulations it states that they don't suggest backing more than a metre. Having said all that, life won't be dull.

Cheers

Tony

[maple_leaf_eh]

Putting a real person into a towed vehicle seems both drastic and dangerous. So, is that person there to turn the wheel and press the brake pedal, or just feel powerless?

In Canada, we have simpler rules about towing. Lights and signals only. The auto parts and gadgets stores sell A-frames that attach to the front bumper and connect to a tow-ball hitch. I have one that cost maybe $200 for my M38A1. However, I wonder if the stresses of tracking the tow vehicle haven't damaged my front wheel bearings. They seem worse than before.

The alternative in Canada is a two-wheeled car dolly from one of the equipment rental companies (U-Haul offers them for do-it-yourself cross country moves behind one of their cargo vans). They are articulated with a pivot under the towed vehicle. You drive into two shallow wells, fold up the ramps, and attach the light harness to the tow vehicle.

[Lynn Eades]

I think "towed " in that sense, means with a rope, which would obviously require a steerer, as would someone being towed on a fixed bar. Surely no country's laws would require a person in the drivers seat of a vehicle being drawn by an "A" frame, or on a dolly.
I have heard that A framing a jeep can sometimes present problems, with the jeep trying to head off in a different direction to that of the A frame. A caster issue, I imagine.
Over here some guys just pull the rear axles and bolt a pre-made cap on each side to keep the dirt out, if they are planning a long trip, with a jeep under tow.

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

I think "towed " in that sense, means with a rope, which would obviously require a steerer, as would someone being towed on a fixed bar. Surely no country's laws would require a person in the drivers seat of a vehicle being drawn by an "A" frame, or on a dolly.
I have heard that A framing a jeep can sometimes present problems, with the jeep trying to head off in a different direction to that of the A frame. A caster issue, I imagine.
Over here some guys just pull the rear axles and bolt a pre-made cap on each side to keep the dirt out, if they are planning a long trip, with a jeep under tow.

Hi Lynn and Terry

The government legislation for A Frame towing in Australia is very strict and states that no person is allowed to travel in a "Towed" vehicle. The only time it is allowed is if the vehicle is towed by a cable or tow rope, then a person is allows to be in it to steer the vehicle and use the brakes. When I referred to "Mr Tibbs" I was joking as he is my dog and that is also not allowed. There really are a lot of for and against when using an A Frame and I agree with some ideas and worry about others. I have heard some people use altered resleeved front wheel hubs and remove the rear axles so the wheels all free wheel for long distance towing. All food for thought.

Cheers

Tony

[Robin Craig]

Frankly I feel what we are legally allowed to get away with on this side of the pond for various vehicle related activities is darn right dangerous.

The Europeans have mandated brakes for the towed vehicles for a while now.

All I can say about having a vehicle on an A bar and the thing not following is that it is classic tail wagging the dog syndrome.

It gets even worse when you take the engine out and the front end looses its weight which is what we did with our Land Rover 90 to shunt it around while the engine and gearbox are out for rebuild. Thankfully i'm using a Dodge 3500 dually as the prime mover and it has the grunt to be in control.

What has always got me worried would be in an emergency braking situation that the un-braked towed vehicle could either push the rear of the prime mover up or could itself over run the A bars and get it's front off the ground. Standing at the side of the combination of the two vehicles and looking at the angle of the A bar to the prime mover gives you an idea of which way it would go.

I have experienced this when A bars are used with dead tracked vehicles. If you want a graphic example of a unbraked towed vehicle, there used to be a clip of one FV434 towing a FV432 moving on a German road at a fair clip, the traffic lights changed and the towed vehicle pushed the prime upwards and it followed underneath to the point that the A bar couplings snapped and the rear of the prime slapeed back down on top of the front of the towed vehicle.

Sadly it has been removed from you tube recently.

If you were lucky enough to see it or have the vision to imagine the scenario then you might see why I'm in support of the Euro brake legislation.

R

[Phil Waterman]

Hi

Over the years seen a number of modifications for flat towing Jeeps, show up at our MV Rally's. These have included free wheeling hubs like the front mounted on the rear in place of the standard drive flange axles. Only problem with these was they did stick out.

The other more common method was just to remove the rear axle shafts and put dummy drive flanges on to keep out the dirt. Then of course free wheeling hubs on the front.

Old military Jeeps seem to tow fairly well, but the M151 series seem to have more problem agreeing with the towing vehicle as to where they were going. One of the guys towed his M151 to a 4th of July parades this week and when he made the turn into the parking lot where the parade was forming up we all watched the show as the tow vehicle turned right and the M151 wheels turned hard left and it just sort of bounced up and down as it came around the corner. Yes he had the steering wheel tied down but not tight enough. One of our M151 experts says the problem is with the steering geometry.

Concerning towing and brakes only time I towed a Jeep sized vehicle it was M151 that broke down on a club trip and we hooked it on the military tow bar behind my C60S didn't even know it was there could hardly see it in the mirrors. Didn't notice anything different when braking with the towing vehicle having about 3 times the weight the truck was not even up to rated weight.

Cheers Phil

[Little Jo]

Hi Robin, Dianaa and Phil

I take your comments on board which all adds to the research I have been doing on the subject. I take what Robin said about the A Frame angles he saw, but the towing attachment on the MB Jeep is off the front bumper which is higher off the ground and with the A frame being about 4 ft the Jeep would be close enough to the tow vehicle to eliminate the jeep going under the tow vehicle. My tow vehicle will be my Jeep Cherokee which is heaps heavier than the MB Jeep.

I have also looked into a scenerio where I could get hold of a couple of spare front wheel hubs and lathe turn the spine off making it smooth, then the hubs would free wheel so that the front shafts do not turn saving wear on the axles and crown pinion. Then later if I should want to go to back to front wheel drive, I just put the original splines hubs back on.

When going on long drives, say to Corowa which is about a 2000 Klm round trip for me. I would, as Phil commented on, remove the rear axles and put an old axle cover, with the axle cut off on to keep out the dust and Bingo. I have all 4 wheels free wheeling, just like towing a 4 wheel trailer, no wear and tear on all the axles, drive shafts, transfer and transmission and when I get to my destination spend about 15 to 20 minutes putting the rear axles back on.

The MB Jeep is not a heavy vehicle and will comply with the legislation. And because the combined weight of both vehicles is under the 4.5 tonnes limit no brakes would have to be added. Though I have had a look at using a rod and cable set up that I could use to add a mechanical brake sytem attached to the MB Jeep brake pedal.

I am still looking at all the pros and cons and have spoken to several people who have advised that some of the bad problems some people have experienced were on later model jeeps such as CJ models. The jury is still out on this project.

Cheers

Tony

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hey Tony - looking at all these responses/theories/opinions, you just gave yourself a major headache. You HAD a beautiful trailer AND NO PROBLEMS but you sold it.

Bob

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

Hey Tony - looking at all these responses/theories/opinions, you just gave yourself a major headache. You HAD a beautiful trailer AND NO PROBLEMS but you sold it.

Bob

Bob

I am surprised at your comment. You more than anyone knows the reasoning behind what I am trying to do. You know the reasons why I sold my trailer. You know I had no place or room at my home to store it. You also know that I was paying $120.00 a month at a storage facility which became to too costly and now you have a cheap shot on the world forum because I am trying to do something cost effective so that I can enjoy my hobby.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hey Tony, I don't do those. We will discuss this in private.

Bob