6v-12volts?

Barry Read · #1 26-09-04, 20:15

how esay is it to convert a 6v carrier to 12volts.
obviously change the battery, but what else?

:

rob love · #2 26-09-04, 21:28

I have never done a stright change over on a carrier;However I would offer this solution as something I have done several times in the past on mk1s. This cures the carriers of the sluggish to impossible starting, especially at hotter temperatures, or if the carrier has been shut down for a short period on a hot day.
Install a 12 volt battery (the bigger the better) into the rear battery box. Install a ground (pos) to the hull. Run the power cable (negative on a ford) to the large post on a 6 volt solenoid. Then run another cable from the other large post to the starter. Remove the 6 volt strter cable from the starter end. Use the existing 6 volt starter cable (you could extend it with a 14 guage wire) to feed the small terminal of the solenoid. Depending on what 6 volt solenoid you get, you may have to run a short ground to the frame from the second small terminal; some solenoids don't have this and get their ground from the mounting body of the solenoid. This way all the carrier electronics, like the lights, water temp, generator, coil...don't need to be changed. The 6 volt is used for everything but the actual starter motor, which now turns on 12 volts. Also, there is very little drain on the battery at just the time the coil can use the most volts; at starting.
I have found that the 12 volt battery gets taxed very little in all this and that you would only have to recharge it about once a year. Also, in this configuration, the carriers puny little 15 amp charging system is more than capable of keeping up with the electrical demands placed upon it.
This same 6/12 system can also be used on the trucks. It has the same benefit of greatly improving the starting. The 6 volt starters are more than capable of handling the 12 volt battery.

#3 26-09-04, 21:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry Read
how esay is it to convert a 6v carrier to 12volts.
obviously change the battery, but what else?:

All the bulbs!

I've done it for a F30 but this had a modern(ish) diesel fitted so came with a 12V alternator and starter.

You can put 12V on the starter as its duty is very low but it may give the ring gear some grief as the pinion is slammed into it with some serious force, the starter relay will need to be replaced with a common 12V type too.

In the case of the F30 I made a regulated 6A convertor to supply a stabilised 7V (a fully charged and charging nominal 6V battery is 7v~7.2V) for the original 6V instruments.

You will either have to select your own high wattage ballast resistor for the ignition coil, or preferably replace it with a modern 12V type.

I have heard tell that the original regulator can be set up to 14V for a nominal 12V system and the dynamo will make that voltage given its head as it is limited only by the regulator setting. I have never done this.

Incidentally, you should be aware that vehicle electrics whilst being referred to as 6V or 12V are in fact never this in real life.

A 12V lead acid automotive battery (you can halve the figures for a 6V system) will rest at some 12.5V - 12.7V, it will drop to some 9.5V - 11V when cranking and should be maintained by the charging system between 14.2V and 14.5V when on charge and full. A digital meter across you car battery will show these readings.

It is normally accepted that a single lead acid cell, it matters not of what size however, is therefore at 1.97V fully discharged and 2.4V charged and on float charge.

Here's a hep of gen on automotive batteries:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/index.htm

R.

Tony Smith · #4 26-09-04, 22:26

You will need to change over the fixed coil on top of the distributor. This can be done with one of the many available adaptors on the market.

Hanno Spoelstra · #5 27-09-04, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry Read
how esay is it to convert a 6v carrier to 12volts.

Barry, having starting problems with the carrier? Before embarking on a 12V conversion, I'd check the grounding of the starter circuit. I have some experience with 6V CMPs and lots of experience with 6V VW Beetles - almost always starting difficulties were due to bad grounding. For example, most battery leads available at automotive stores are not up to the high currents of 6V systems. A 6V electric system is much more prone to suffering from bad connections than a 12V system. Checking connections and wires for voltage drops might yield better results than a 12V conversion.

Just my 2 €-cents worth!
Hanno

#6 27-09-04, 17:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
almost always starting difficulties were due to bad grounding. For example, most battery leads available at automotive stores are not up to the high currents of 6V systems. A 6V electric system is much more prone to suffering from bad connections than a 12V system.

Sound advice.
Ballard's F15 suffered similarly; first I had him remove several layers of No.2 Brown from pertinent chassis points and then made a set of truly massive starter and ground cables with 18mm core cable.

No problems since with 6V supply.

There is a lose/lose situation, with the small but significant voltage drops owing to poor connections and often undersized leads, the starter will try to make up for the lost volts by increasing its already huge current drain. This just makes the volt drops worse and during cranking you'll be lucky to see much over 4.5V at the battery. A volt lost in the combined effects of supply and ground connections is not impossible and 3.5V at the starter just wont do it.

R.

Barry Read · #7 27-09-04, 22:58

Well lots of good advise coming all ways, thanks guys.

No not having any problems, but thought it would be better to do a converstion to 12v. thought it would be more reliable being 12v.

and give better starting in winter.

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #8 28-09-04, 01:48

Hi all you heathens
If you are true restorers stay with the original voltage. It was good enough for them then, so it should be good enough for us now.
Restorer Bob

rob love · #9 28-09-04, 03:10

Having whacked my elbow and nearly my jaw with those damn starting cranks a couple of times, I'll go with the 12 volts at the starter thing.
After all the work spent restoring a vehicle, I'll be damned if I'm going to be embarrassed by a non-starter on a hot day. Besides, I don't change anything that isn't easily changed back, and the next owner (I won't be on this earth forever) can put it right again if he so desires. That is if we don't have to install hydrogen cells to replace the engines somewhere in the future.

Heres a question regarding the rear battery box on the mk1: What went into it for batteries, and assuming they put out 12 volts for the #19 set, how did they get recharged? By the chorehorse only?

rossbart · #10 03-02-09, 14:45

It was mentioned to run a 12 volt coil with a 12 volt system. Will this work with the points ignition (distributor)? I have also read that you need to use a 6 volt coil with a resistor to step the voltage down to 6. Can anyone shed some light on that question?

Also, are there any good electronic ignition conversions for the flathead distributor out there that anyone has tried?

Thanks,
Ross

Tony Smith · #11 03-02-09, 16:13

A 12v resistor coil actually runs on about 8.6v, while the original Ford 6v coils have an ignition resistor and run on around 4.6v. Running a resistor coil without a resistor will burn out the points. Running a 6v coil in a 12v resistor system will give too much voltage at the points and burn them out quickly, and may even damage the coil. A points distributor will work fine irrespective of the operating voltage, provided the correct coil is used to prevent burnt points, ie 12v w/o resistor, 12v Res coil w/ resistor, 6v coil w/o resistor or 6v Res coil w/ resistor. Mention was made above to the coil adapter because that arrangement will give a wider range of coil choices.

There a couple of electronic conversions for the "Crab" style distributor (as well as whole new electronic dizzys), but I'm not aware of any for the "Diver's Helmet" style. The electronic units only work on 12v (not 6v), but there are also Hall Effect and LED triggered units that COULD be made to work on 6v if you were really keen.

rossbart · #12 03-02-09, 19:37

Tony,

Thanks for the response. I need a bit more help knowing what you mean by resistor coil. I guess, in effect, I want to upgrade (and simplify) my ignition as much as possible for the very fact that I am not an electrical expert and function and simplicity and reliability mean more to me than originality. For this reason, I am even considering upgrading my generator to the following internally regulated piece in order to eliminate the external regulator as being a potential problem:

http://www.powermastermotorsports.co...rGENbackLg.jpg

http://www.carparts.com/autoparts/It...D:100000357735

But, as an "electically challenged" tinkerer I am not sure what I would need to do about the coil. Are you saying that there are 12 volt coils that are internally resisted down to where they will work with the flathead points distributor? If so, can you give me a recommendation for the setup I have? It's still a positive ground but a 12v battery, the above generator, original 6v starter and factory distributor? I am not worried about any other 6v items as my lights, guages, etc. are all converted to 12v already.

In recognition of your closing comment, attached are some photos of the distributor that I have. Hope the pics are clear enough for you to tell what kind I have. The coil is (as you can see) remote and not integral as I have heard some mention.

Thanks so much for your help,
Ross

Tony Smith · #13 03-02-09, 23:46

Your distributor will work on 12v and does not need to be "resisted down" to work with a 12v coil. Any coil you select does, however, need to be wired in an appropriate system with or without a resistor to match the coil. Examples of coils can be seen Here for Lucas. Speak to an Auto Parts shop and they can suggest a proper set up. A coil with resistor can provide better starting IF wired up correctly, but you might need an Auto Electrician's assistance to do that.

From what I can see of your distributor, it looks to be a British type fitted to Ford Pilot cars and Thames Trader trucks. Are you in the UK?

George McKenzie · #14 04-02-09, 00:33

My friend Jim Debock converted his mk1 to 12v .He used a Mercury starter as it has a little more power .He also changed his generater to 12v You would never know to look at it that it was change . The motor puts out 110 hp that you wouldn't know except when you drive it .It moves much better with the extra power . Jim tells me that he has not been able to log in to this forum .Too bad as he has done some great reastorations and is very knowlageable .He is building a Windsor carrier now . George

Jim Price · #15 04-02-09, 00:57

Ross,
I went the 12 volt route on my F8 and am quite satisfied with the results. I am still using the 6 volt starter. If you don't turn it over for any length of time, it will work just fine.

As for the distributor, it should work just fine in the 12 volt mode. However, if you want an electronic system, Mallory has several different ones for early Ford/Mercury engines.
There's a booklet out on US eBay for 6 to 12 volt conversions. I bouth it and it was quite helpful.

Best of luck!

Regards,
Jim

rossbart · #16 04-02-09, 06:14

Actually, I am in Oklahoma USA. Just purchased this carrier. It was in Northern Illinois but I understand it had been in Wisconsin previously. I just picked it up over the weekend and was trying to size up what I had bought sight unseen. It would start 'okay' but not great but just didn't seem to have any power. I noted that it had a 12v battery and original 'looking' generator. Wasn't sure about regulator or coil. But, I noticed that after literally a minute of runtime that the coil was super hot. I checked the voltage at battery (which was around 12v) and at the coil which was, also, about 12 volts. I guessed that it was a 6v coil and wondered if it needed a resistor. Not finding one I just tried wiring one in and with the resistor the voltage at the coil dropped to 6 volts, the coil stopped being hot and the carrier runs totally different.

I think I may have fixed it. Replacing the coil would probably be a good idea still as I have no idea how old it is or how hot it's been. But, for right now it seems to be better.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Ross

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #17 04-02-09, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by George McKenzie

My friend Jim Debock converted his mk1 to 12v .He used a Mercury starter as it has a little more power .He also changed his generater to 12v You would never know to look at it that it was change . The motor puts out 110 hp that you wouldn't know except when you drive it .It moves much better with the extra power . Jim tells me that he has not been able to log in to this forum .Too bad as he has done some great reastorations and is very knowlageable .He is building a Windsor carrier now . George

George,

Tell Jim to email me to reset his password if he can't do it himself...

Lynn Eades · #18 04-02-09, 11:42

1. No. its not the british distributor, its the third type dizzy(latest)and
2. its the capacitance of the condenser, that dictates whether your points burn out. the condenser needs to match the coil (what ever voltage it happens to be) If the capacitance of the condenser is too high, or too low (measured in micro farads) metal transfers from one contact to the other.Have you noticed how 6 volt systems seem to have large condensers, and 12volt systems, have small ones?

the main purpose of a resistor coil(or ballast resistor coil) is for ease of starting. for example a car that runs a 12volt system, with a ballast coil feeds its primary ignition system though the ballast resistor, reducing the voltage to around nine volts (essentially a 9 volt coil) When the key is in the start(cranking) position, the coil is fed directly with the full 12 volts, giving the spark a boost. when the key returns to the run position, the coil is once again fed 9 volts, having been dropped from 12volts, by the resistor.

Tony Smith · #19 04-02-09, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

1. No. its not the british distributor, its the third type dizzy(latest)I think you might be right, Lynn. Ross' pics weren't too clear.

the main purpose of a resistor coil.... When the key is in the start(cranking) position, the coil is fed directly with the full 12 volts, giving the spark a boost. when the key returns to the run position, the coil is once again fed 9 volts, having been dropped from 12volts, by the resistor.

Actually, when the key is in the cranking position, the Starter draws current and the Batt voltage drops well below 12v, down to around voltage the coil operates on. If this was run through the resistor, the coil would be getting insufficient voltage.

rossbart · #20 06-02-09, 06:03

One more quick question:

I am not familiar with a positive ground system - this is my first. I appear to have everything running 12 volt (except coil which is resisted down to 6 volts. I want to add some 12 volt electric guages in this interim time so I can monitor water temp, oil pressure, etc.. On a positive ground system do I need to wire everything in reverse of what I'm used to with automotive and 12 volt negative ground? In other words, on the guages, do I need to ground the positive wire to chassis and the black wire to the battery negative circuit with an inline fuse on the battery negative circuit?

I would assume so but am certain that there is a vast storehouse of knowledge here that I'd like the benefit. Thanks for any help to the new carrier owner.

ROss

Jim Price · #21 06-02-09, 06:11

Ross,
I used and recommend the booklet, "The Official 12-Volt Conversion Guide" by Randy Rundle. I picked it up on eBay. It was a lot of help!

Regards,
Jim

Grant Bowker · #22 06-02-09, 14:42

http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/
Available here any time for $US10.00 plus the usual shipping etc., no need to wait for an auction. I haven't dealt with them but they've been advertising in Hemmings for quite a few years.
They also sell alternator pulleys to fit a variety of belt sizes and brackets to mount alternators to either Chev of Ford engines of the vintage used on CMPs.

Lynn Eades · #23 06-02-09, 20:36

Many older vehicles can be converted from +ve earth to -ve earth by changing the battery around, and re polarising the field magnets in the generator ( as simple as wiping a wire,hooked to the new live terminal of the battery, to the little terminal of the generator)Any alternator is not able to be changed easily. Instruments are not usually polarity sensitive, but some are.Generally speaking, fuel, temp, ampmeter,and oil pressue gauges are not polarity sensitive. Its generally the charging system that needs the attention. repolarising the 'fields" as I have just mentioned is all that is needed, but it must be done immediatley after the battery is reversed, and before the engine is run up. Otherwise the regulator and generator will burn out. Usual warnings, Check with an auto electrician.

rossbart · #24 06-02-09, 22:32

Thanks Lynn for the info. It's just the guages that I'm concerned with right now. So, I think I'll just try them as normal (but with an inline fuse just for insurance) and see if they work. Guess that will tell the tale won't it...

Ross

Jim Price · #25 07-02-09, 00:41

Ross,
It's your system but before you go ahead please consider the following: To be able to use your original dash gauges with a new 12 volt system you will need to install a voltage reducer such as a Runtz tranistorized voltage reducer on each electrical dash gauge except the Amp gauge. A Voltage gauge simply needs to be "tweaked" to work in a 12 volt system. Using these will provide you with accurate gauge readings as well as prevent them from being damaged from excessive amperage or inaccurate voltage.

Regards,
Jim