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#1
13-03-04, 17:22
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War Dept. numbers
My cousin was killed in an accident in England in 1944 that involved two army trucks. One was British war dept. #4912067 and the other was #CL4203472. Can anyone tell me what type of vehicles these would have been?
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#2
13-03-04, 18:14
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Re: War Dept. numbers
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Sorry cannot help on the second number, it appears to be a Canadian truck. Do you have a photograph of the incident as you know the numbers? Richard
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#3
13-03-04, 22:35
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CL census number
CL4203472 would be a 30cwt or larger, very likely a CMP although there were Mack and Diamond T CL's also.. My database from contemporary photographs shows CL's mostly in the 4235xxx to 4277xxx range - but it is far from complete as yet.
There are quite a few CH's ( gun tractors) in the 4203xxx to 4207xxx range. David Moore
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#4
13-03-04, 22:56
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Canadian census numbers
Richard
Following up on your reply to Cletrac - can you allocate a vehicle to L 4203472 forgetting the "C" prefix for the moment? I am trying to establish how the numbers given to vehicles in Canadian units were allocated. I assume that the whole 42xxxxx block was reserved for Canadian soft skins - but were they allocated by builder's contract as per the UK-built vehicles? Were these Canadian government or British government contracts? If the latter, then you should be able to find the contract? Or were they simply allocated their numbers by some quartermaster organisation as they arrived from N.America ( I have yet to find photo evidence of a single British-built softskin with a C prefix i.e. CH, CM, CL or CZ. Plenty of British-built CT's, CF's and CC's mind. No CA at all so far either!) Now waiting for the evidence to prove me wrong! David Moore
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#5
13-03-04, 23:13
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Re: Canadian census numbers
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According to the British "B" vehicle census, the block of numbers 4200000 to 4299999 was "Canadian not on 'B' census". As for British built vehicles in the H, M, L and Z class with C prefix, there were a number of trucks in the L class that were issued to Canadians, ie Foden 6x4, Bedford QL, etc. would have to dig deep to find photos, though. Richard
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#6
14-03-04, 08:08
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Canadian vehicles
Sadly the Canadian records are not available. The Canadian Government destroyed the vehicle record cards years ago (ref. the late Peter J. Ford's research).
I have been researching in this field for 20 years and have only found bits and pieces of info. There MAY be major info buried in the National Archives in Ottawa but I do not have access to these. The 4,200,000 to 4,299,999 block of WD numbers was one of several batches of War Department (i.e. British) numbers assigned to Canadian Army overseas. Unfortunately, unlike the British allocations, we have no breakdown of how the numbers were allocated by the Canadian Army. C = Canadian issue. L = Lorry Unfortunately we have no idea as the the maker or the model. If by chance a vehicle with a similar WD number was found (in historic photos or in a collection) that would indicate a likely (but not guaranteed ID) of the type of vehicle involved in the accident. British vehicles taken on strength by First Canadian Army would usually have a C prefix added to the WD number, though there are exceptions. When a vehicle from Canadian Army was transferred to the British Army, the C prefix was usually deleted. Examples include an HUA and a WLU (Willys slat grill jeep made on contract CDLV 242). Remember that there were a number of British (and American, Dutch, etc. ) formations under First Canadian Army and that a number of Canadian formations served under British command. The odd batches were 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion which was under the British 6 Airborne Division.
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#7
14-03-04, 18:45
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I don't have any photos of the accident. My cousin Walter Abbott was riding in the back of 4912067 with a number of other troops returning from leave in blackout conditions when CL4203472 ran into them. The driver of "CL" was put on trial but found not guilty. This info comes from Walt's military service records. He was serving with 101 Bty of 8th LAA Regiment in the Canadian army.
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#8
14-03-04, 19:42
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Quote:
Richard
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#9
15-03-04, 01:09
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Canadian vehicle census nos.
Colin
Thanks for info. Do you - or Richard - know what other number blocks were assigned to softskin vehicles in the Canadian army overseas? From my records I see a few "C" vehicles in the (early?) 195xxx series, a couple in the 415xxxx to 419xxxx range and a lot more in the 57xxxxx through 61xxxxx series. I now have about 400 Canadian vehicles in my lists and, although this is still very patchy, I'm thinking of summarising what I have with Marc's help in a future edition of Convoy. Which leads me to urge all of us to help Convoy to prosper - an unsolicited plug to keep your subscriptions active! David Moore
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#10
15-03-04, 23:22
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Re: Canadian vehicle census nos.
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David, You ought to obtain a copy of the Chilwell book, "Allocation of Central Census - "B" Vehicle WD Numbers", obtainable from Rob at Groucho Publishing in Holland. Look it up on a search engine, they have a website (details not to hand). This will enlighten you, as the 415xxxx to 419xxxx range is mostly British vehicles with the odd groups assigned to India and Malta, did not see mention of Canada within those numbers. Hope this is of help. Richard
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#11
16-03-04, 01:59
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Thanks for all the responses. They cleared up a lot of questions.
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#12
17-03-04, 07:48
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1944 chilwell censusnumber list for B vehicles
Hi all,
As mentioned before I do a reproduction of the Novembre 1944 "Allocation by Central Census Tanks and vehicles of 'B' vehicles WD numbers" by RAOC Central Ordnance Depot Chilwell. One of the foreseeable uses of this list is probably that on repairs the contract details of a vehicle being worked on could be found by checking the vehicle number. (in case contract plate was missing?) The book gives in numerical order the census numbers (WD numbers as painted on the vehicles) in blocks as they were allocated. For details check my website: www.milweb.net/go/groucho I have compiled a similar list of this data, but in alphabetical order of manufacturer, and within this groupage by contract reference sequence. Although I try to add to this list, eg chassis numbers from spares lists etc, or Canadian numbers (from pictures etc) I have not come far with the added info. The Beverley museum would not let me in to do research, nor would the Zwijndrecht museum, that have in their library the former Bart Vanderveen collection of manuals etc.
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#13
27-08-05, 07:05
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Ford GPA Amphibious Jeep
Richard and David
Are you able to advise if the Chilwell book "Allocation by Central Census Tanks and vehicles of 'B' vehicles WD numbers" of November 1944 includes Contracts SM2621, SM2820 or LV-2538, or any other Ford GPA Amphibious Jeep contracts. The Canadians had 20 GPA's under LV-2538, and another previously for testing (together with a DUKW). The Canadians also had 3 GPA's overseas. The British had 4 GPA's under SM2621, and 621 GPA's under SM2820. Of the 621, 386 GPA's were assigned Census Numbers, ie P5219692-P5219876, P5219881-P5219981, and P5587101-P5587200. What census numbers were assigned to the other 239 (621-386+4) GPA's? The Statistical Work Sheets from the Tank-Automotive Centre in Detroit, Michigan (USA) indicated 690 GPA's were forwarded to GB prior to November 1, 1944. There also remains the mystery of where 65 (690-4-621) GPA's went. Has anybody researched National Archives, Ottawa, for GPA photographs with the Canadians at home and abroad? The 20 GPA's were used for training by Pacific Command in British Columbia at different training schools. David, I saw mention on another page of you researching photographs for census numbers. Were there any GPA photos? Ian
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#14
27-08-05, 11:49
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CL 4287280
This is a CMP in 1945 with CL 4287280 on the cab
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#15
27-08-05, 11:58
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Known Chevrolet CMPs
CH 4207629 1941 CGT
CZ 4241710 1941 C15 [CL] 4215220 1941 C30 CL 4219248 1942 C30 CZ 4229130 1942-3 C8A CL 4291981 1944 C60L CZ 4255794 1943 C8A
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#16
27-08-05, 21:36
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Re: Ford GPA Amphibious Jeep
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According to the copy of the Chilwell book I have here, only Contract number SM2820 is listed, in three batches, P5219691-5219873 (note discrepency with your numbers), 5219881-5219981 and 5587101-5587200. Hope this is of help. Richard
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#17
28-08-05, 10:02
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Mystery Numbers
Richard
Thank you for your note. There are always mysteries when it comes to records. We see it time and time again. I have copies of handwritten Contract Cards for SM2621 and SM2820 from The Tank Museum in 1998. The numbers in Chilwell are certainly different to those on Card SM2820, ie P5219692 - P5219876. Another mystery!! SM2621 has no dates. SM2820 has dates of 30-4-44, 17-5-44 and 19-4-43, however, does not say to what the dates refer. Other notations on the front of the card are also meaningless to me. The card has allocations on the back, namely UK (Admin) 8, UK 330, ME 111, India 164 and S Africa 8. This totals the 621 vehicles. It appears only 386 were allocated Census Numbers at that time. Dates on the back say 21-12-44 and 3-1-44 however they mean nothing to me without explanation. Ian
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#18
28-08-05, 22:59
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Re: Mystery Numbers
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Solved the mystery.....I was looking this up in one Rob van Meel's copies of the Chilwell records. I usually use the one with census numbers in order, but this time looked it up in another copy laid out in groups of manufacturers........and found a mistake. You are right, it is 5219692 - 5219876. Just as a matter of interest as you are in to GPA amphibs, the following census numbers are for Trailer 2 wheel, Amphibian and made by Willys under Contract no. SM2932, census no's X5219877 - 5219880. I had never come across this before, do you know anything about it? Richard
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#19
30-08-05, 13:18
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Trailer, 2 Wheel , Amphibian
Richard
I have no documentation in front of me as I write, however, the trailer referred to is the normal steel jeep trailer, capable of floating when the bungs are in. I have seen official documentation that refers to the trailer in that way. I trust this answers your question. Ian
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#20
30-08-05, 16:13
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I've always liked this pic of a US GPA and Trailer showing just what a load it can carry:
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#21
30-08-05, 21:14
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Re: Trailer, 2 Wheel , Amphibian
Quote:
I thought it may have been something special .....obviously not! Richard
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#22
31-08-05, 14:01
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Camp Blanding, Florida
Tony
This is a brilliant photograph, and brings back memories of Corowa. What else do you have in the way of GPA pics? Ian
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#23
31-08-05, 20:59
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Another British GPA
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#24
01-09-05, 23:59
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IWM Records
David
I wonder if the IWM ever get to the point where they place their entire index to collections and photographs on-line (like the Aust War Memorial). I recall spending several weeks wading through the entire AWM photo collection 25 years ago. It was a massive job, great fun, saw and copied hundreds of images. I am sure there must be heaps of pics of GPA's at the IWM. I have found they are often found in the background to shots, therefore are not mentioned in the caption. I would imagine the same would apply to National Archives, Canada. Are there Canadian's or Britain's out there, who "live" in the photo collections? Ian
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