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-   -   CFR Request Thread (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14402)

Ed Storey 02-11-20 12:09

Triumph Motorcycles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie fitton (Post 273593)
Thanks Rob, I was hoping to find a correlation between cfr and ser no.... a hint of a pattern, anyway.

Does make one wonder how many of these were actually ordered. When I first started going to the supply depot in London (1973 or so) , there were 99 (I counted) still in the crates ...

Unfortunately, like many of the early individual DND vehicle fleets, there was no correlation between the CFR and the serial number. In this case the fleet name was Motorcycle, Light, 500 cc, Triumph TRW. I have a document which refers to a Mk 2 version but I am not sure if Canada used more than one Mark version of this motorcycle or what the differences between the bike marks was. Your number of 99 crated bikes certainly falls in line with the indicators leading to well over 100 being acquired, but I have yet to discover what the actual number was. The term 'Pattern' is not often, if ever, used in official vehicle nomenclature being reserved more for clothing and individual equipment.

rob love 02-11-20 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Storey (Post 273598)
The term 'Pattern' is not often, if ever, used in official vehicle nomenclature being reserved more for clothing and individual equipment.

SMP = Standard military pattern
CMP = Cdn Military Pattern

Alex Sandor Csank 02-11-20 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Storey (Post 273598)
I have a document which refers to a Mk 2 version but I am not sure if Canada used more than one Mark version of this motorcycle or what the differences between the bike marks was.

The Mk2 simply refers to the changes made by Triumph to the TRW during their production run from 1950 through 1964. According to the research I have been able to cobble together, most of the Canadian TRWs were Mk2 models, being produced from about 1956 through 1958. The Mk1 was probably never shipped to Canada, while the Mk2B was the last series, built from about 1960 or 61 through the end of production. The differences between the models were not major changes.

Re high!
Alex

Alex Sandor Csank 02-11-20 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie fitton (Post 273558)
These bikes seem to be registered by their engine no.

Might have the letters TRW before the number.

25740


thx

I will post a bunch of TRW info on the thread about 'Post War Motorcycles' today. That should give you more info.

Rev high!
Alex

Alex Sandor Csank 02-11-20 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love (Post 273591)
If you go back in this thread to page 6, the 6 trws that showed on the EDR viewer are listed there: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...&postcount=170


Or to save you from getting lost, I'll cut and paste the info here:

CFR List

As of 09-NOV-10

Formation : -

Unit : -

Disposal Status : ALL

Year Number HUIC Holding Unit ERN ERN Description
1956 93492 0145 CFB LAHR 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93873 0122 CFB CHILLIWACK 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93874 0122 CFB CHILLIWACK 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93906 0145 CFB LAHR 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93908 0114 CFB/ASU Kingston 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93912 0114 CFB/ASU Kingston 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2

Thanks! Looking at the end of the data, it appears that the six you have listed may all have been 'Mk2B' models. That in itself is interesting! Wishing there was more information about our Canadian TRWs available.

Rev high!
Alex

Ed Storey 02-11-20 19:25

Vehicle Nomenclature
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love (Post 273602)
SMP = Standard military pattern
CMP = Cdn Military Pattern

Yes I should have been more specific, I was not thinking broad-brush but was more focused on the individual vehicle nomenclatures such as there is nothing listed as a Pattern 1956 Triumph Motorcycle.

Ed Storey 02-11-20 20:01

CFR Lists
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Sandor Csank (Post 273605)
Thanks! Looking at the end of the data, it appears that the six you have listed may all have been 'Mk2B' models. That in itself is interesting! Wishing there was more information about our Canadian TRWs available.

Rev high!
Alex

While the DND vehicle lists are helpful in determining how many vehicles of a particular type were in use and their CFR range; I have encountered some errors with respect to the recorded vehicle type. Cross checking with the documents in my collection; I came up with a 1959 dated Data Summary which records the vehicle as a TRW, a 1956 Ordnance Parts Identification List for a TRW Mk2B and a 1955 User Handbook for a TRW. All three documents are Canadian although the User Handbook is a British publication. I think the answer might lie within the 1960 Ordnance Catalogue for Vehicles and Tracked Equipment which records the Canadian Army at the time using the Triumph Model TRW - 1950, Triumph Model TR5 - 1953 and the Triumph TRW Mk2B - 1956-1957. All of these Motorcycles were classed part of the Standard Commercial Pattern.

rob love 02-11-20 22:32

Interesting...I have a TRW that has a very early 1950 frame but the motor serial is from the mid/late 50s. I think my frame number is somewhere around the 14th or 17th TRW made. I assumed it was a replacement frame from the UK or elswhere, but your information, Ed, makes me wonder.

Alex Sandor Csank 03-11-20 18:05

While I don't have any sort of complete data about the TRW 500s delivered to Canada and used by the Canadian Army and RCAF, I DO know that they were used at several bases across Canada by both the Army (MP, Provost, Signal Corps) and the RCAF. The C.A.R. numbers for which I have found photos are all stenciled in white paint on both sides of the fuel tanks, and the ones I have been able to find have all been 56-XXXXX through 57-XXXXX. There is some, but not lots, of information in the "Only TRW" Facebook Group, some manuals and other data on the "Triumph Pre-Unit" Facebook Group, and at various British bike websites.

Here's the best information about the serial numbers. These are based on the engine numbers, but all TRWs left the factory with matching engine and frame numbers. Obviously, if an engine failure occured, a different engine would be fitted:

Mine is #26232NA (1957). It is a matching numbers TRW 500, (apparently) built on the 25th of September 1956. According to Triumph records, TRW 26232NA was dispatched to the Canadian Army on the 19th of January 1957 with gearbox number 85822, which also matches the number on my bike.

TRW Military 500cc Side-Valve Twins
YEAR (batch production total) Engine Numbers

1950 (58) / 14401N-14459N
1951 (unable to calculate. #s do not make sense) / 6044NA - 14320NA
1952 (837) 22001NA - 22838NA
1953 (434) 22839NA - 23273NA
1954 (48) 23274NA - 23322NA
1955 (274) 23323NA - 23597NA
1956 (1879) 23598NA - 25447NA
1957 (1679) 25448NA - 27127MA
1958 (47) 27128NA - 27175NA
1959 (170) 27176NA - 27346NA
1960 (298) 27347NA - 27645NA
1961 (539) 27646NA - 28185NA
1962 (278) 28186NA - 28464NA
1963 (641) 28465NA - 28827NA
1964 (777) 28828NA - 29605NA

Total: 7959 (Unable to calculate the numbers for 1951). The current data published in a couple of places states that a total of 15939 TRW 500s were built between 1950 and 1964. That would mean that the production run for 1951 would have to be 7980, which is pretty unlikely because Triumph just did not have the production capacity to produce that many in one year in 1951.

I'll post tis in the Post War Motorcycle THread as well.

I hope that helps.

Rev high,
Alex

Josh Mordarski 21-11-20 18:27

Hi Ed! Got another request from a gentleman on FB for a trailer he recently purchased.

M101 CDN 2, Serial 1909.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Ed Storey 21-11-20 20:54

M101cdn2
 
Serial 1909 was CFR 15064 manufactured in September 1994. It was disposed of from ASU/CFB Montreal in April 2007.

James Whyte 24-11-20 04:41

1985 Iltis
 
I have a 1985 Bombardier Iltis. Wondering if anyone has info on units it may have been with or where it went.

Identification number is BI-01-04-85-87012

Thanks

Ed Storey 24-11-20 20:46

Iltis 87012
 
Your Iltis 87012 was disposed of out of 25 CF Depot, Montreal in Sept 2005 and you are lucky as you have a vehicle with some overseas service as it had been used in both Haiti and Yugoslavia. I suspect your Iltis was being used with SFOR in Bosnia prior to being returned to Montreal.

rob love 24-11-20 21:53

87012: Yes Ed, a very well travelled Iltis. Looks like you can add Germany to it's list as well. Here in Canada, Borden as well as a few different attachments to some of the French units. The record even has it as being attached to ATCO, which would have been after they assumed a lot of the equipment maintenance in Bosnia in 1999.

James Whyte 02-12-20 04:15

1 Attachment(s)
Thank you for the information guys. I had managed to find out that my Iltis was in Bosnia as I found this picture of it there posted on another forum. Interesting to see how much it actually traveled.

Ed Storey 02-12-20 14:49

Iltis 87012
 
You are fortunate to have a photograph of your Iltis on overseas service, any chance of getting a photograph of your Iltis as it is now taken at the same angle?

Bruce Gilkes 07-12-20 00:14

CFR Lookup?
 
Hi Ed,

I have an Iltis CFR 86238. Do you have any info on it?

Thanks!

Bruce

Ed Storey 07-12-20 02:26

Iltis 86238
 
Disposed of out of Edmonton in May 2006.

Josh Mordarski 04-02-21 01:21

Hi Ed! Happy New Year! I've just acquired an M101 CDN2 trailer with serial 0294. Can you tell me what CFR it had, and where is was surplused out from? Thanks!

Ed Storey 04-02-21 02:33

M101 cdn 2
 
Unfortunately 0294 is one of the gaps in my M101 CDN2 database and a trailer that I could not trace.

Josh Mordarski 04-02-21 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Storey (Post 276361)
Unfortunately 0294 is one of the gaps in my M101 CDN2 database and a trailer that I could not trace.

No worries Ed, your assistance is always appreciated :)

I'll have to spend another $5 and get another FOIA request done.

Ed Storey 04-02-21 12:32

M101 cdn2
 
Let me know if you have any luck with your FOIA as your trailer appears to not have a record attached to it.

Dave L. 10-05-21 21:39

Looking for CFR for an iltis trailer
 
I recently bought an iltis trailer and was looking to get some history on it.

M101 CDN 2

Ser # 0656

MFR # 36221

Looks like it was at one point painted white then repainted.
It’s in pretty good shape, considering the beating some of them took.

Any info would be great!

Thanks

Dave

Sean McKee 12-05-21 19:32

M151A2 History
 
I recently acquired an M151A2 and am interested in getting some history on what unit(s) it served in and where. No tac markings that are visible (it was repainted when welded back together) that could help tell the story. All I have is the serial on the data plate.

AM General 74-95012292
Engine looks to be original to the vehicle and is manufactured by Ford Canada (BTW, were the Ford engines in M151A2 CDN painted white? Mine is and just wondering if this is correct to the 74 pattern jeeps.

rob love 12-05-21 20:02

I never saw a Cdn made engine. There were grey painted engines, which were rebuilt. Never saw one in white. Original engines were semigloss black.

Ed Storey 13-05-21 02:31

M101cdn2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave L. (Post 278815)
I recently bought an iltis trailer and was looking to get some history on it.

M101 CDN 2

Ser # 0656

MFR # 36221

Looks like it was at one point painted white then repainted.
It’s in pretty good shape, considering the beating some of them took.

Any info would be great!

Thanks

Dave

Your M101CDN2 was CFR 15750 and it was disposed of out of London in Feb 2007. The last user was the First Hussars.

ED

Ed Storey 13-05-21 02:42

M151a2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean McKee (Post 278851)
I recently acquired an M151A2 and am interested in getting some history on what unit(s) it served in and where. No tac markings that are visible (it was repainted when welded back together) that could help tell the story. All I have is the serial on the data plate.

AM General 74-95012292
Engine looks to be original to the vehicle and is manufactured by Ford Canada (BTW, were the Ford engines in M151A2 CDN painted white? Mine is and just wondering if this is correct to the 74 pattern jeeps.

Unfortunately your serial number does not match any of the Canadian M151A2 vehicles in my database. What is the contract number on your data plate?

Dave L. 13-05-21 04:06

Hi, Ed

Thank you for the info on the Iltis trailer, small world. 1H was my Regiment!

Regards

Dave

Sean McKee 30-05-21 04:22

Scott, I was up at Brian Asbury’s today and we looked at an original AM General data plate from a Canadian contract M151A2 which was a proper 5-digit serial stamped on the data plate. There is a corresponding Ziebart plate with a 74-9XXXX number that was written on the back, so our assumption is on my jeep is that whoever restored it put on a replacement data plate and used the CFR number as part of a “self-created” VIN in order to register it with the Ministry of Transportation in Alberta or BC.

Is it possible for you to use what I am assuming to be the vehicle CFR (74-95012) to check the database to find the 5-digit serial?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Storey (Post 278869)
Unfortunately your serial number does not match any of the Canadian M151A2 vehicles in my database. What is the contract number on your data plate?


Ed Storey 30-05-21 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean McKee (Post 279197)
Scott, I was up at Brian Asbury’s today and we looked at an original AM General data plate from a Canadian contract M151A2 which was a proper 5-digit serial stamped on the data plate. There is a corresponding Ziebart plate with a 74-9XXXX number that was written on the back, so our assumption is on my jeep is that whoever restored it put on a replacement data plate and used the CFR number as part of a “self-created” VIN in order to register it with the Ministry of Transportation in Alberta or BC.

Is it possible for you to use what I am assuming to be the vehicle CFR (74-95012) to check the database to find the 5-digit serial?

Unfortunately the CFR (74-95012) you are hoping to use for your M151A2 was actually assigned to a piece of road construction equipment.


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