Light Green Paint, Olive Drab Paint, etc
 

Hello All

I have noticed many inquires on some of the paints used by the DND Plus I had my own questions. As I’m restoring (or should I say building) an Iltis to as delivered since basically all I'm saving from the original is the frame and am going to use as much NOS parts I can find.

SO I took it upon my self to research PAINT and find comparable FS595C equivalents. I learned the FS595C equivalents are not necessary. As there is a Paint manufacturer in Canada that has the 1-GP-12C colour standards and paint samples and can match any of them.

This will be a lengthy post so bear with me.

The colours used on Canadian Mil equipment were colours laid out by the Canadian General Standards Board (CGSB).

Since my concentration is post war I only referred to the 1-GP-12B Colour Standards (effective in 1957) And the 1-GP-12C Colour Standards Effective in 1965, Section 5 of the 1-GP-12C standards applies to Equipment (vehicles) so this is where I concentrated my research.

The 1965 Standards superseded the 1957 standards and were in use till
1991 when the 1-GP-12C Canadian colour standards were withdrawn and the U.S Federal Color Standards were to be used as replacement
The current iteration of it is the FS595C Color Standards.

The FS595C colors can be accessed on line here.

http://www.colorserver.net/

I was able to track down an original archived copy of both the 1-GP-12B and 1-GP-12C Standards Pt1, and Pt 2, the 3x5 colour cards. These were DND stamped copies.
I also acquired a copy of the current FS595C color cards.

So I had all the reference material at hand to compare and match the old Canadian colours as best as it could be done to the modern FS595C colours.

Now on to the good stuff.

I will break each paint down with the 1-GP-12C colour number the 1-GP-12B Colour Number (if applicable) and the closest FS595C color (to my eye) and how it differs.
Colour comparison was done out doors in sunlight.
All the colours listed are flat (lusterless) colours

It appears that the DND had 3 Olive Drab Greens in the 1-GP-12C standards. All 3 a different shade.

The first I Call a Light Olive Drab this was the original colour supplied on the Iltis from the factory and was used on many other items.


The 1-GP-12C # is 503-321
The 1-GP-12B # does not cross reference
The Best FS595C match is FS 34129 but this colour is not yellow enough and a darker green. FS34130 is also close but a shade too light but would make an acceptable stand in.

The next colour I call Olive Drab Dark it is darker than either of the other Olive Drabs
The paint is listed in the specs as being available in Flat Semi Gloss and Gloss

The 1-GP12C # is 503-320
The 1-GP-12B# does not cross reference.
The Best FS595C match 34079 it is near perfect


The next I call Olive Drab is it greener than Olive Drab Dark and a bit lighter.

The 1-GP-12C # 503-319
The 1-GP-12B # 3-212
The Best FS595C match is FS34096 it is very close.

There is little difference between 503-319 and 503-320 503-319 is just a little greener.

The Next colour I call Field Green

The 1-GP-12C # is 503-322
The 1-GP-12B # is 3-220
FS34227 is too light and FS34094 is to dark. This colour does not really have any FS595C colours that match it closely.

The Next colour goes by many names, Pea Green, Light Camo Green, Nato Green ETC.

The 1-GP-12C # is 103-311
The 1-GP-12B # (forgot to write it down but it does cross over)
The best FS595C match is FS34491 it is a very close match.


Last is the standard Flat Black

The 1-GP-12C # is 512-301
The 1-GP-12B # is 11-201
The FS595C # is 37030 this is an exact match

Now were do you get these colours?
Any Paint manufacture or mixer should be able to match FS595C colours.

But for exact matching the 1-GP-12C standards.
Tempo Aerospace http://tempo-aerospace.com/ Currently is a suppler of Paint to the DND and has been for many many years.

The still have the 1-GP-12C Standards and colour cards and can match any of the 1-GP-12C colours.

I was able to get a quote for paint from them for $116.00 for a 3 quart kit (2 quarts Colour 1 Quart catalyst) matching the 501-321 colour paint. That is a high quality CARC paint that they claim is way way way more durable than the original used on the Iltis The paint is not a Low IRR Paint, (Low IRR paint is a DND controlled item I was informed).

The Catch is there is a $160 set up fee for any orders under 8 quarts.
So if any one wants to order paint let me and we can split an order and get the set up fee waived. I need 2 kits of the 501-321 1 kit of Flat black and 1 Kit of the Pea Green 103-311

So if any one is interested in splitting an order to get the set up fee waived let me know.


I hope this Information was of some use to every one.


Matthew

matthew,
Well done, sir. Top marks.

I am a bit color-deficient. What color green would you say this guy's M101CDN2 Trailer is, FS34491?:
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/at...2&d=1267100017

Hello Tom

It is not FS34491 That is the lightest camo colour that appears a bit blue.

I'm not sure what color he painted it. I bet he just matched the orginal colour it was.

My M1010 Canadian Mil ambulace last coat of paint was 383 Green (FS34094) but has faded to a much lighter color, ( about the color of the trailer you posted a pic of) I know it's last coat of paint was 383 green as where the front CFR license plate was is still 383 green and has not faded like the rest of the vehicle.

I belive that the original color used on the M101CDN2 trailer color was 383 Green Best as I can assume as some of the under side paint on my one M101CDN2 (that has not been painted since disposal) and appears to have not faded matches the FS34094 colour (383 Green) I also wet sanded an area on the side to remove the oxidization and it came out to match the 383 green.

If I'm wrong maybe someone can correct me.

Some areas that have faded a bit match FS34082 the more faded ares almost match FS34097 And the really badly faded areas alsmost match FS34227.

Either the paint supplied to the DND was not UV stable and oxidized/ faded badly or the soaps the DND used to wash equipment affected the paint.

Paint is supbjective and the DND certainly appears to have not strickly adheared to thier color standards during repaints.

I would only get really up tight over colour matching if restoring something to as delivered to the DND. Or trying to replicate a very specific time frame.



Matthew

Paint on trailer
 

Guys,

Hey...thats my trailer! Here is the paint I used to paint the trailer and my Iltis. That photo of the trailer was taken about a week after I sprayed it.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_scMSK_N6E3w/TE...%20002.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_scMSK_N6E3w/TE...aint%20003.jpg

I think Matt really nailed it when he mentioned that the paint colors were not strictly adheared to....

My 151 has also been painted with Real McCoy, two part 383 CARC Green. My paint came from Tempo Aerospace:

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data.../100_08581.JPG

It seems to me that depending on wether it was Tempo, PPG or Sherwin Williams, all appear to be slightly different. The Tempo stuff seems to be a bit greener than the PPG and SW.

I guess its similar to the arguements that come up over the correct Green in the older 3 Color Cam Pattern. I have a Gallon Can of the correct "Green", and yet it is clearly not the same as the "Green" used on one of my M151s. Again, I think it comes down to the minor differences between Paint Mfg's and the method that it was applied.

When you chum around on G503, they have some heated discussions about the correct shade of Semi-Gloss Olive Drab.... :D

Scotty

A couple more factors that will vary the color of the paint are how it was stored (ie: frozen) how old it is (thicker) and the amount and type of reducer used to spray it.

Re trailers, and all the B vehicles for that matter, by the early 90s all were being painted the flat green. Some units would still cam the trailers and continue to cam the trucks, but flat green and it's later CARC equivelent (not the olive) was the correct color.

Your Right, he did nail it.

The photo of the trailer, although it was freshly painted, it was dusty at the time perhaps thats where the "blue" came from. The photo was also taken in direct sunlight. Its been inside for a long time since and appears much darker inside.

I have some close ups of the original 3 color camo on that Ferret scout car, will post up some photos. I will have to deal with paint for that this winter.

Cheers

Paint Samples Available
 

In the For Sale section are paint samples of the three tone paint with correct names.

Anthony :drunk:

Here is a photo of my Ferret with a cut out chip from Anthony (strat1). He is the fellow with the original paint chips for sale on this thread Modern Canadian Paint Chips Available

If you look at the area where the rear fender was attached, you can see the factory Deep Bronze Green paint and the terrible blob of CDN pale pea green. Its been there covered by the fender. I think its the same color as the upper green only its faded. The lower is the darker green. You can see how the chips compare, mind you this is a photo shop cut job, so photos not taken under the same light conditions so they are not going to be as close as they could be.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_scMSK_N6E3w/TE...17%20Paint.JPG

The Paint Samples
 

The paint samples are not thinned down and are from the sample I was lucky to get from the depot, so you will get a different shade from time to time.Brad your samples will be in the post tomorrow.

Anthony :salute:

Hi Bmills where did you get the carc from I contacted my local Sherwin Williams industrial coatings division and they told me they cant sell it to me as it's a controlled item I would love to get some to do my iltis trailer also.

CARC Paint is a controlled good in Canada. If you are not registered with the Controlled Goods Directorate you can not legally purchase it in Canada.

But you can buy it from a U.S supplier and have it shipped up to you no issues what so ever. Go figure that one out......

There are many suppliers in the states that will sell to Canadians and ship the CARC Paint to Canada.

Most manufactuers type II CARC's flash point is high enough that is does not need to be shipped as a hazardous material. So if you are going to buy from the States best to buy Type II CARC and save yourself a bundle on the shipping.



Matthew

The Denver Dupont shop is sitting on a boatload of Type 2 CARC 383 Green that was special ordered for a customer but the order fell through. They do ship.

Sherwin Williams Chem Coatings Div
1501 West Evans Ave
Denver, CO 80223
(303) 935-3553

Is sitting on about a hundred gallons of the low VOC CARC 383 F93G104, single gallons were $87.66, and they will ship for about $20/gallon.

New M38a1 owner and new to forum
 

Hello all,
Although this subject has been beaten to death, would like to revisit.

I have recently acquired a 1967 M38a1 from Pembroke Ont.and have trailered it to Winnipeg, my home town. I am wanting to repaint same in the original solid colour mil spec paint. Although this post is a little dated, would anyone know the correct paint code and supplier for this era? Also, are colour sample plates available?

cheers
grant

So you are painting it the single semi gloss olive green, or are you painting the 3 colour camouflage?

Color fade...
 

Since the bulk of these posts are up to 5 years ago, I would like to know if the "new/modern" paints have performed better than the original paints used by the CF over the years? The CF vehicles seemed to fade out to almost a chalky finish after a very short time in the weather.

What has been your experience with new paints?

It seems like a lot of effort and waste to go through all the work to get colors and camo patterns correct, and then have the paint deteriorate quickly when you go outside.

For that reason, I'm on the fence about what paint/color(s) to use on my M38A1. I would appreciate advice from anyone who has recent experience with these colours.

Thanks, Wayne

I use the paint from Gillespie, which is through Rapco out of Texas. With our dollar in the toilet bowl lately, the price has gotten a little higher, but still under $60 a gallon. Things like the Jeep are kept indoors for a good part of the year, but I also have an MLVW and a Deuce, both painted with Gillespie 2 years ago, left out to the elements, and both are doing fine. Price wise, I don't think you'll beat the cheaper enamels.

You can easily pay 4 to 8 times that price for fancier paint, but in my case I would just as soon repaint every 5 or so years than spend the money. Besides, I enjoy taking the jeep through the forest once in a while, and no matter what paint I use, it's going to get scratched. I think I can re-paint (or certainly touch up) a jeep almost as fast as I can drive it into town and through the carwash.

Good feedback Rob. I'm assuming you use the "911 flat black", but which of the other Gillespie colours are the equilivent of the 3 color camouflage (34079 forest green, and 30118 field drab brown)?

I will be debating between this and the glossy OD scheme.

911 black is good, or as an easily sourced alternative, tremclad flat black (oil based) works well and I have had no fade in this colour, unlike the original army black that turned grey. Quite frankly I will use either. I got the 911 when I was at the last MVPA convention, otherwise, if shipping and exchange is involved, I am better off buying the tremclad locally.

So that leaves the other two colours. For the flat green, the 383 green CARC replacement paint from Gillespie does nicely. I find it looks a little gawdy when it first goes on, but after a day or two settle into the right colour. I just finished off the last of an original gallon of the flat green paint, and the 383 is a good match.

That just leaves the ever elusive Canadian olive green. For that I use the 33070, which is a little too brown. To overcome that I add a little bit of 33087. Adding a little extra reducer seems to lighten it up as well.

End of the day, you will have 3 colours that contrast nicely and give the proper effect. Nobody will be able to call you a liar.

I have talked to Brian Asbury, and he has the Canadian colours produced by an original supplier. Only problem is he doesn't ship paint to the prairies. So until I catch someone coming through from Ontario to out this way, the Gillespie paints will have to do.

Edited to add: I bought some Arvoe paint here in Canada a decade ago and was not happy with it whatsoever. I saw the stuff being sold at Crown Surplus a few years back, so it is in country. However I personally do not reccoment it and I have read where others had the same poor experience with that paint. YMMV.

White Paint on Differential Cover
 

When did the CF stop applying white paint to the rear differential cover for blackout driving purposes?

Was white paint on the differential covers in use during the years of the 3-color camouflage paint scheme on M38A1's?

My CDN2 has evidence of once having a white diff cover, but it was painted over at some point.

Also, does anyone know if it was a flat or gloss white that was used?

Wayne.

My gut would tell me not to rely too much on the presence of a white rear diff on the vehicle for dating purposes. Too much possibility for a diff cover or complete rear axle assembly being swapped out on a vehicle. Better to check if the vehicle was ever equipped with the convoy lamp and switch set up.

For certain, the M-Series vehicles delivered/built up to 1953 for the Canadian Army were convoy lamp equipped. At some point subsequent to that, this system was phased out, but exactly when I do not know. My 1st M38CDN was a 1952 vehicle purchased from Crown Assets in 1976. It still had a white stripe painted on the centre of the rear diif, the convoy lamp mounted underneath the rear of the vehicle and the convoy lamp switch assembly on the dash. The convoy lamp wiring was still in place but had been cut and taped off under the dash.

It also had a working turn signal setup added to it. The big heavy grey pot metal switch assembly with the indicator lamps in the main body. The indicator lamp circuit had also been cut. I wondered why, until I restored it. First time I used it at night, the green indicator lamp lit up the entire interior of the jeep.

It would not surprise me if instructions were published in the Army at some point advising the convoy light system was to be terminated. Some one out there might know when.

As far as I know, the paint used to mark the diff was the same semi gloss white used for CFR Numbers etc on the vehicles.


David

I joined the regular army as a mechanic in 81. At that time any remaining convoy lights were removed to make test lights.

While they were on the 50s stuff, I have only seen one on a 67 Jeep. Without the lamp, there would be no reason to paint the diff white.

Thanks David and Rob. I don't think any of the M38A1's beyond the 53's had the convoy lights (other than the random outlier as noted by Rob). I was just curious after seeing the white paint on my diff cover on the '67.