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Hi,
I have a question asking by a fellow friend impacted by the new SAAQ ministerial decree. Is it possible to drive on Ontario roads an HMV that has a C-plate? Cheers |
Perhaps that is a question he should ask his insurance company (is that the SAAQ?). Would they still insure him if he was involved in an accident while on a road (in another province) that does not meet the restrictions set out in Quebec as a C license vehicle.
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Sounds like maybe someone should inquire with Haggarty or maybe try to get them on side with this issue in Quebec
And BTW, the QC government argument against gangs and armoured vehicle is as stupid as the Fed stance on firearms. I somehow doubt very much that criminals would give a crap about licensing requirement if they were in a position to use one. |
Is there any way to challenge the changes made by SAAQ? perhaps a class action lawsuit?
I imagine the new changes will hurt the value of the effected vehicles. |
It will probably take a provincial election to clear all this mess up. This is the same government that brought in a provincial firearm registry last winter, is it not? They are giving other parties a winning platform to take up in the next election.
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Thank you Stuart Fedak.
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Quebec Transport Ministry + MV owners
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That is excellent proof of purpose of use.
Does that mean that we have to come up with every military vehicle contract to support our argument against any new restrictions in place now, and for any that may come up in the future? I'm not sure how freedom of information works but maybe it's worth a try..? |
Great write up. Thanks for your insight. What a mess. To make it even worse, some certain individuals are given the power (in situations like my own) to go against the individual provincial laws based on their personal dislike of the appearance of a vehicle and we dont have any real way to appeal their opinion on the subject..
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AawsZV5xTw8 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWSO...ature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iKi...ature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGL1...ature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5aG...ature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSwF...ature=youtu.be |
Pushback
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I've been following along on Steel Soldiers and you guys sure have expanded on the story, geez. I still want to help those individual owners that have been given MV restrictions in Quebec. Does anyone have some direction on how we can help? Currently I'm reaching out to the Insurance Bureau of Canada, the Canadian Press and all the Quebec Ministers until this goes away. I'm doing it at a personal level but it also affects future business plans. How are my buddies from Quebec going to drive to Alsask to see the Civil Defence museum and radar dome in Saskatchewan? This restriction must be a mistake. All the manufacturers of all the various types of collected vehicles DID NOT tell SAAQ all Military Vehicles are built for off road use only. That would be business suicide. It appears so ridiculous I'm surprised it's not April Fools Day. We all want to know who's responsible for this mistake and how fast they can get it fixed. How can we help? Are tourists welcome in Quebec in their MV's ? Google French Translation [DEVIS = M38CDNBill; 262977] Malheureusement, Patrick, nous vivons maintenant dans un pays peuplé de petits lapins roses ...;) Voici un lien Internet qui vous permettra de savoir comment nous avons été accueillis lors du défilé historique et militaire qui a eu lieu. lieu le 3 juillet 2008 pour le 400e anniversaire de la ville de Québec. Si les forces anti-émeute n’avaient pas été là-bas, nous aurions vraiment passé un mauvais moment. [url] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AawsZV5xTw8 [/ url] [/ QUOTE] Après avoir visionné cette vidéo, je ferais sortir tous les grincheux du Québec. Sommes-nous dans la zone à deux lumières? Une foule difficile ..... les avons-nous éduqués? Je vous ai suivi sur Steel Soldiers et vous avez certainement approfondi votre histoire, mon Dieu. Je veux toujours aider les propriétaires individuels à qui des restrictions de MV ont été imposées au Québec. Quelqu'un a-t-il une idée de la manière dont nous pouvons aider? Je contacte actuellement le Bureau d'assurance du Canada, la Presse canadienne et tous les ministres du Québec jusqu'à ce que cela disparaisse. Je le fais à un niveau personnel, mais cela affecte également les futurs plans d'entreprise. Comment mes amis québécois vont-ils se rendre à Alsask pour visiter le musée de la Défense civile et le dôme radar en Saskatchewan? Cette restriction doit être une erreur. Tous les fabricants de tous les types de véhicules collectés NE DIT PAS à la SAAQ que tous les véhicules militaires sont construits pour une utilisation hors route uniquement. Ce serait un suicide commercial. Cela semble tellement ridicule que je suis surpris que ce ne soit pas le poisson d’avril. Nous voulons tous savoir qui est responsable de cette erreur et à quelle vitesse ils peuvent la réparer. Comment pouvons nous aider? Les touristes sont-ils les bienvenus au Québec dans leurs MV? |
I have been following this story with interest.
Given the perspective of looking at the issue from outside of Quebec, it is easy to draw the conclusion it all has to be a mistake. However, from the perspective of anyone inside Quebec with strong nationalist sentiments, ‘misinformation’ can be an extremely powerful political tool. The timing of this is interesting as well, as the country as a whole is ramping up for a Federal Election that has the ability to distract a lot of people. David |
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We can make many assumptions, but I think that there is probably an ideology among some senior officials in Quebec who want to impose an ideology that aims to exclude all military images from the public square of Quebec. By extension, we could draw a parallel with the Quebec gun registry and in the eyes of these officers, probably that they see in the antique military vehicles an extension of this desire to control excessively, or even to banish, everything that represents the violence to their eyes. Quote:
It's sharp and try to reach the Facebook page of the "Véhicles Militaires du Québec" to share what you do for us. Don't be shy to write in english, almost HMV owners can read in English. |
Hi,
Here is an interesting article written in the Hemmings Dailey and the ministerial decree imposed by the SAAQ could originally come from the same problem of serial numbers of Humvees as it was lived in the state of Michigan. https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2019/0...g-bill-vetoed/ |
Another article to make people laugh or cry... business as usual :yappy:
https://www.albawaba.com/business/to...y-daesh-823762 |
Action Plan
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I was hopeful that MV groups and private collectors in Quebec had a majority of community support and this would be easy. Since I joined the MVPA our activities were mostly about safety, public education, parades, historical displays, private ownership awareness, personal tributes......all that honour, fun and friendly stuff. The public has been fantastic all 8 years displaying in Alberta so my heart goes out to my fellow Quebec MV collectors. What do they need? Are tourists welcome in Quebec if driving HMV's? We have family in Quebec and I'd like to show them some history. I have some concerns about travel in Quebec and AMA doesn't have any travel advisories. When that happens, I call and write the minister responsible for tourism. If anyone has any future plans to travel to Quebec, any future plans......., I believe these are the first people we call. https://www.quebec.ca/en/premier/tea...rs-of-cabinet/ I wasn't sure how to 'address' my first letters to our government so here's a little page that helps guide the text as it flows from your fingers into the email box of our best decision makers. https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-he...s-address.html Minister of tourism Quebec contact info 2019 Caroline Proulx Contact Information Department Ministère du Tourisme 900, boulevard René-Lévesque Est Bureau 400 Québec (Quebec) G1R 2B5 Telephone: 418-528-8063 Fax: 418-528-8066 ministre@tourisme.gouv.qc.ca Ministère du Tourisme 1255, rue Peel Bureau 400 Montréal (Quebec) H3B 4V4 Telephone: 514-864-3419 Fax: 514-864-6988 ministre@tourisme.gouv.qc.ca Federal Minister of Canada Tourism contact info 2019 https://www.canada.ca/en/government/...anie-joly.html Contact information House of Commons Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Telephone: 613-992-0983 Fax: 613-992-1932 Email: melanie.joly@parl.gc.ca Quebec Transport Minister The Honourable François Bonnardel https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/en/Pages/Home.aspx It's right there on their page....Contact us.... https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/en...ontact-us.aspx By mail Ministère des Transports Service Québec 511 500, boul. René-Lévesque Ouest, bureau 4.010 Montréal (Québec) H2Z 1W7 By telephone Anywhere in Québec: 511 Elsewhere in North America: 1 888 355-0511 |
Contact
I made contact with a pile of departments today and met people that are really struggling with this. The faces answering the phones put me on hold continuously trying to find out what's going on. They were extremely professional and even apologetic at not having the answers.
SAAQ put me on hold the longest and Mileana worked very hard continuously putting me on hold to ask for confirmation from the big head on the table. I'll start at the end of my adventure today because this is where folks should start. These next folks asked for pictures and measurements of my truck, bus, car or whatever I choose to bring to Quebec. It's the same info above but I'll do it again because these are the folks that will keep my truck out of the court system when I visit Quebec. The only difference in direction was asking me to fill out the online form. I didn't limit myself to that and using all aspects of comms works terrific. If everyone sends pictures and information about your vehicles to these fine folks you'll find out if Quebec is as friendly as we know it is. They're asking for feedback before they decide what to do with this is what I know. https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/en...ontact-us.aspx """"""""""""""""""By mail Ministère des Transports Service Québec 511 500, boul. René-Lévesque Ouest, bureau 4.010 Montréal (Québec) H2Z 1W7 By telephone Anywhere in Québec: 511 Elsewhere in North America: 1 888 355-0511 By secure email Use the Ministère’s online form to send us: requests for information reports claims for damages – see the procedureDocument au format PDF (193 Ko) complaints complaints pertaining specifically to neighbourhood annoyances (OHV) comments Make sure to fill out clearly the fields marked with an asterisk. All requests must be processed within the time frame specified in the Ministère’s service statement (in French only). Please note that any message containing insulting or hateful remarks will remain unanswered. We also reserve the right to forward any threatening message to the competent authorities. """"""""""""""""""' I need to make travel plans so I started with the Alberta Motor Association Travel Bureau. They didn't know anything about HMV travel in Quebec and eventually suggested I call the RCMP. They already know what most HMV groups and collectors do and had no knowledge of any restrictions, other than criminal. They suggested I call SAAQ directly. As mentioned Mileana from SAAQ was wonderful but eventually she determined SAAQ wasn't sure and was certain SQ would have a list of vehicles I could visit Quebec with. SAAQ asked me a lot of questions and the back ground noise made me suspect they were very busy at the time. She asked if the vehicle I was bringing to Quebec could be used for off-road or had a weapon mounting point. I thought about the video of our 1966 GMC Coach bus driving through the farm field, the gun rack in the CUCV and behind the deuce seat as well as the 50 cal mount brackets on the cab, so I said yes. She laughed when I told her about the bus and replied, "I guess any vehicle can be used off-road". Since SAAQ didn't know if I can visit in my HMV, with their suggestion I move on to SQ. SQ https://www.google.com/search?client...=quebec+police 1-819-772-3048 I call SQ to ask if I can come visit Quebec in a historical vehicle. The fine gent on the phone didn't know anything about any new legislation that changed the way they operate so he really wasn't sure. He said he wouldn't want to leave me stranded on the side of the road in Quebec with bad information so he's helping us look for answers. He was real certain the folks that push legislation through would have an answer and after a few hours of direct calls, I finally got a toll free number. I call Service Quebec. 1-888-355-0511 https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/fr...s-joindre.aspx Carol over at Service Quebec was disappointed that he really didn't have an answer either. I'm not saying I got a personal invite to come visit him in any vehicle I wanted but that was the sentiment. https://aqtr.com/association/a-propo...tale-nationale 418-643-6903 While we prepare a complete list of vehicles for the Transport minister, a partial list has already gone over to the Minister of Tourism asking if I'm welcome in Quebec in my HMV? After speaking with several departments today it is clear that more people need to know about this. Hearing the replies today from the beautiful French accents saying they're disappointed and don't know enough about the restrictions to help me is a sad state of affairs. Quebec supports 400,000 people in the tourism industry. That would already put pressure on a Finance portfolio so I'm guessing we need to let the Finance Minister know we're not sure if our money is going to Quebec. W5 folks, who knows an investigative journalist that gets paid to hustle documentation paths? The folks that should have the info are getting the info last and an AIA account for Access to Information would be a bonus. Onward, Who wants a map of some of the coolest Cold War sites to visit on their way through Quebec? These sites were all essentially abandoned in 1968 and some don't even exist anymore. Our plans for travel included photography of Cold War era vehicles at sites throughout Quebec. Those sites in essence, helped protect the continent to this very day. The Culture and Heritage in Quebec also belong to my parents and their parents, paying taxes to support all of Quebec and especially in the Continuity of Government. Did anyone call the Cultural Minister yet? I'm cramming French lessons but just getting past greetings and things like, where's the washroom. . . . . . Don't let me stop anyone from following up on these numbers and asking if you're Welcome in Quebec! |
I believe that all the provinces as well as the US states have reciprocal agreements re vehicles on the road. I think, for the most part, that if your vehicles is registered for full road use in your province, then it is fine to travel through any other province. I have read that in the US, some states have outright blocked on-road registration for HMMWVs, yet guys who are out of state can drive their HMMWVs through the states that don't allow on-road registration.
Hopefully your calls will lead to some common sense at some point. Re the safety of the ex-military vehicles, I have owned and driven my military vehicles for over 40 years, and the one accident that happened was in no way my fault, and my passenger and myself both walked away, despite the other vehicle being a lot heavier. And with about 5 minutes work, the Jeep drove the rest of the trip. Autopac wrote the vehicle off and let me buy it back for not much money. Basically, I got paid $1100 (in 1985 dollars) and I was able to push the body back using a couple blocks of wood and a screw jack, and had to replace the fender and hood. I think it was under an hours work....easiest thousand bucks I ever made. |
Quebec Tourism Minister
Is my HMV welcome in Quebec?
I'm hoping to get an answer fairly soon before all the leaves freeze and blow off the trees. Here's a little snippet of an email for the tourism minister. I'll follow up with phone calls after Monday and let them talk among themselves over the labour day long weekend. Caroline Proulx, http://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/deputes/p...ml?appelant=MC For the Public Record. I am a member of the Military Vehicle Preservation Association (MVPA), the Alberta Aviation Museum and President of the Canadian Civil Defence Museum Association writing to you in a personal capacity at this time. It is important I bring your attention to SAAQ restrictions recently imposed on various types of vehicles. The restrictions limit certain types of vehicles on roads posted under 70-kph. https://www.journaldequebec.com/2019...KZkgLNcyZW9A-U """""""The Société de l 'assurance automobile du Québec has decided to limit the use of these vehicles on public roads where the speed limit is equal to or less than 70 km / h. They will be able to cross at a right angle a road where the limit is higher, but they will now be banned from highways, as well as on provincial roads where the limit is 90 km / h."""""""""" The selection of vehicles included in these restrictions isn't clear. I began to inquire about traveling to Quebec to visit family in one of my Historic Military or Civilian Vehicles. My friend and neighbour, Nick Bulgar was killed in Afghanistan in protection of Brig.-Gen. Jonathan Vance ten years ago. Since that time I have freely traveled in Historical Military tribute vehicles and participated in Historical Military Vehicle events. My personal collection includes Civilian type vehicles that were purchased by the Canadian Military and painted green. The organizations listed above preserve, restore and display Canadian and Continental history. The MVPA has worked tirelessly since the mid 1970's to ensure safety and public education were primary roles among its membership. Today I contacted SAAQ for clarification and Mileana was very helpful. They did not have a list of vehicles that were prohibited or restricted but sent me along to the folks that would 1-819-722-3048. This is the department that needs to enforce the traffic rules. This was the first time they had heard of the Quebec provincial restriction and suggested I talk to Service Quebec at 1-888-355-0511. Carol was unaware of any restrictions to travelers and visitors in Quebec and suggested I talk to the Quebec Minister of Transport, 418-643-6903. Since this "restriction" was received in writing to registered vehicle owners and became effective on August 22nd of 2019, I was certain other departments would have known about it. After speaking with Sophia with transport Quebec it isn't clear if I'm welcome in Quebec as a visitor. I have a grand selection of vehicles to choose from including: 1956 GMC 6x6 that served in Wainwright for 3 decades on Emergency Measures Organization standby in the event of a National Emergency. 1953 GMC 6x6 from Penhold Base that served as a cargo truck, transporting goods and Canadian Military Members in training. 1954 GMC 6x6 Shop Van. This vehicle was available to the Canadian Reserves in Yellowknife for decades and could have been a work shop or even a command center for communications. 1966 GMC Coach Bus. This Bus was purchased new by Calgary Transit and was later adapted as a fire department bus to house victims of fire. It currently performs at Airshows from Edmonton to Red Deer Alberta, on highways, doing the speed limit. 1951 Chevy Suburban. The Suburban was purchased by the Canadian Military as a civilian vehicle and painted green. This was a cold war car driven around Alberta since 1951. It was purchased through auction from Surplus Canada over 40 years ago and has remained in the family since that time. It's role was light cargo and service member transport. Other vehicles at my disposal for travel include units that were auctioned by Canada GC surplus to the general population for the good of the greater public. The LSVW, the Iltis built by Bombardier and many other styles of very reliable Vehicles appear to be a part of a restriction list. The MVPA has a great number of videos available online of the various vehicles we have operated across this continent and around the world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oZvPqNZxKg Can you please tell if I am welcome in Quebec in my Historical Military Vehicle? |
Road registered M113A2
Hi guys,
I'm also from Québec, as you all know I'm restoring a M113A2 since 7 years now, it got registered as a working vehicle by the SAAQ 2 years ago, with the new rules I'm beeing pulled out of the road because of the mecanical inspection needed by the "C" plate. As you also all know It's still in my driveway as the project is far from to be finish and ready but I don't want to lose what I've already got as license plate with all the paperwork I've gone true. I'm alone in all that story M113A2 no very common here. ;) |
Text of my question to the Minister.
"I have a permanent address in Ontario and a temporary address in Quebec. I also operate historic military vehicles registered in Ontario. Periodically I drive in the Gatineau area. From what I read on the internet, military vehicles will be severely restricted for operation on Quebec's roads in the near future. How does this effect me, and my Ontario registered vehicles?" Terry |
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Accurate questions that need to be asked :thup: In the same way, can I drive my HMV in Ontario with a C Plate? Cheers |
Hopefully fellow collectors in Quebec don't panic. I foresee the potential unfortunately for a sudden glut in the Canadian
market for historic MVs if they decide to start dumping vehicles in hopes to recoup. Typical government BS without thought and another step into certain agenda for Canadians. |
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Who do you call?
This is harder than it should be. They put a bunch of real sweet ladies on as front-line operators and their French accents are so distracting its hard to focus. They start off in French but they all speak English.
I called the Quebec Tourism Ministers office to find out which vehicles I can visit in. I reminded them of my email and they will continue to help look into this. http://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/deputes/p...ordonnees.html 1-418-528-8063 Tourism suggested I call the Alliance, ......what a sweet word when spoken by Lilyane over at the Ministers office, alliance. The folks over here at https://alliancetouristique.com/en/contact-us/ had the best music when you're sitting on hold. The information from Guylan suggested that she watched the news and the "legislation" was targeted at private owners of Military Vehicles. I don't need to write that down twice. The official comment from the office is that they can't help me with my specific questions at this time, but stay tuned. """"""""The Alliance de l’industrie touristique du Québec works closely with the tourism community to ensure that Quebec remains a major and competitive destination. Questions? Comments? Requests? We will be happy to answer you! You can also check the Team page to contact a specific person.""""""""" Again, this toll free number is the contact provided by the Department of the Minister of Tourism Quebec. Am I welcome to Quebec in my HMV? 1-877-686-8358 |
Bill, totally understandable. My point in saying not to panic was suggestive to stay tuned and hope things work out. It is indeed troubling and always an uphill battle whenever dealing with bureaucratic nonsense. In this case the reasons and arguments presented by the SAAQ don’t make much sense.
It has been a battle south of the border as well in some US States that tried to push restrictive legislation upon antique vehicle owners. Unfortunately we live in a new world of do gooders who choose to flex their muscle and collective mindset on the rest of us. It’s a matter of fight or throw in the towel but I really do get it. It’s been the same uphill battle for Canadian firearm owners for a long time and will continue in the foreseeable future. I used to argue at the gun club with fellow Members who did not see the reason I needed a military type firearm; guys who should have been on the same page as we were all in it together. Look how that narrow mindedness has filtered down to the average hunter for example. The public views his firearm the same way- a gun is a gun and you don't need it no matter the reason. Antique auto clubs should be on our side, their cars will be next on the chopping block. Certainly food for thought the next time someone stands on their soapbox extolling their personal virtues in the name of public good. |
Travel insurance travel plans
Do you fellas have a "travel bureau", AAA or travel agency that would recommend a travel route through Canada from West to East?
They are very helpful with giving away a free map and drawing a line on it to guide you to your destination. They give away brochures of all the places to see along the way. Some even offer reasonable travel insurance in case you're going into third world countries or traveling into unknown territory. Insurance can cover legal costs in some cases so that sounded like a good idea. AMA offers towing services all across Canada and it's honoured in Quebec. As long as I have my card they say, we'll get you to a safe location. Diebert is safe. Our agency is called AMA. The Alberta Motor Association. I asked them to show me a route through Canada to my favorite publicly open Cold War bunker in Nova Scotia. https://www.enterthebunker.com/exper...istoric-tours/ The route is through Quebec. I asked if they could check if any of the vehicles on the unofficial list would not be allowed in Quebec. AMA, "There is nothing on Quebec's website or media releases that say I can't visit Quebec in the vehicles listed". I asked my AMA front-line girl Justine to check with a supervisor to ensure an Iltis, M923, LSVW or other "Military Vehicles" have no restrictions to travelers. After a long pause, the reply is clear. "Any vehicle legally insured and registered in another Province or State is free to travel in Quebec." I just started working on the legions to see if any of them on route have some decent parking and maybe even an overnight spot. Here's a little list on the right side of the page. http://www.qc.legion.ca/english/contact_us.html The reactions we get from the veterans when we show up in old MV's all polished up for a parade is amazing. Often, it can only be equaled by the reaction we get from those currently serving. Arranging some base visits for static displays so the current troops can look through the old gear is always fun. Providing vehicles for Military Base events is a real treat so I think the place to begin arranging that is with the Defence Minister. https://www.ourcommons.ca/Parliament...S-Sajjan(89497) The Honourable Harjit S. Sajjan - Overview - House of Commons of Canada. Hill Office House of Commons Ottawa, Ontario Canada K1A 0A6 Telephone: 613-995-7052 Fax: 613-995-2962 Mail may be sent postage-free to any Member of Parliament. I'm sure someone has already called him because he's responsible for a lot of these same vehicles. I know we're welcome on base so let's open the dialogue. There are a pile of bases, places and spaces to visit in Quebec but I'm unfamiliar with the area.....and the weather this time of year. I know you folks can't forecast the weather and with that hurricane pulling all kinds of tricks along the coast, what is the "best guess" at the weather over the next few months along the St Lawrence Seaway? Does anyone have suggestions on iconic military related places to see through Quebec? Onward |
Reasonable, logical, responsible
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The radar is on folks. Looks like group A is meeting with the Quebec Transportation Minister.
The MV restriction issue needs to be resolved quickly and withdrawn without delay. With our thoughts on the people facing severe weather on the East coast and the loss of life we've already witnessed within the last few days, we need to focus elsewhere. We'll watch for updates. A big thanks to Adam for capturing this moment at one of Canada's Military sentry's. |
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