Surcouf
 

Hi Lynne,
I don't want to hijack this thread, but the information about Free French being supplied with 10 of the NZ Carriers, and the fact that the hull for sale in Belgium is from Tahiti, led me to find out about a French submarine under the control of Free French met its demise on it way to Tahiti. The Surcouf, read its story here;
http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships...id=Surcouf-NN3
I did read another site saying there was speculation that it might have been targeted by a US bomber as there was claim to have hit a sub within the time it went missing and no other sub was known to be in the area.
Think this should be on a new thread maybe.

regards, Richard

Carriers in US Service
 

Hi all,

Here are a few more pictures of the Honiara carrier. They are not great I'm afraid.

Lynn-I'm fairly sure all the aussie carriers have the data plate on the right front guard as well. Mine certainly does and it is a Metropolitan Gas Works manufactured one. Perhaps some of the other aussie carrier owners can confirm.

At the time I thought the NZ carriers had the data plate in the same place and I figured this might have been one reason why the guard on the Honiara carrier was gone.

While in Honiara I spoke to an ex-pat aussie living there who had set up a museum of sorts with all sorts of artifacts he had recovered from the jungle with the help of the locals. They included a Willys jeep, M2A1 Stuart tank complete with a 37mm hole in the hull when it was knocked out, (the very early one), Japanese field guns and anti tank guns, Zero engines, Japanese MG's and all sorts of other battlefield pickups.

He said he had located another carrier in the jungle that he hoped to pull out at some stage. He hinted that logistically it was a bit difficult to get to though. I was amazed at what is still being found there with a steady stream of local people coming into see him with battlefield pickups that he was paying them for.

If anyone is interested I could post the pictures on a seperate thread.

I can't seem to reduce the size of the last picture so if it is too big let me know and I'll delete it!

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3361/du60.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img41/4964/iy4b.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img196/3417/nf75.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img24/7189/te7o.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img32/5638/bcy.JPG

Darryl,

No problem, I've reduced it to a link rather than an image, so interested members can click on it.

Please attach the pictures to your post also, as experience learns us that over time the external links to sites like imageshack etc. will disappear.

Thank you!

Hanno
MLU Administrator

Hi Richard

To continue with your hyjack, how can anyone even consider that one of the Allies could have been subject of friendly fire from our confederates the USofA?

My WWI veteran grandfather is reputed to have said the most dangerous place on the battlefield was being next to the Yanks! As happened to him in the 1918 Battle of Hamel under Sir John Monash.

NZ or Aussie Carrier ?
 

Hi Guys, I will add my 2cents worth. NZ carriers hull build numbers were stamped on the front top of the Right hand towing eye and this number will possibly only go as high as 1210. Sometimes the " T " number is on the Left hand side towing eye top. This is true for the later LP2A's.
The early LP2 number is stamped on the middle towing Eye, sometimes you need to rub the area with a little sandpaper and it shows up.If anybody is handy to this one in the islands it would be nice to know the numbers as I have a bit of a registar of NZ carrier numbers here in NZ. So it usually does not matter whether the mudguards have rusted off or the data plate is gone , we still can trace it manufacture.

Carriers
 

Hanno,

Thanks for that.


Andrew,

I have some colleagues arriving there in about 2 weeks. It might take a while but I will get them to check out the towing eyes as you've suggested.

Yep check the towing / lifting eyes.
 

The centre eye would be stamped near its upper edge.
If no centre eye, then check the top edge of the two lifting eyes

The track direction could be reversed by anyone at any time, as I am sure a few have fitted them the other way round without knowing it! The track has lead plugs so it could be either Kiwi or Oz production. Some Kiwi track was made in America, with rivetted pins, with the wide spaced wheel guides.

If the Guadalcanal carrier is from NZ wartime stocks, it may be an LP2, either early production Vickers armed, or mid production with Bren adaptor.
The ammo box mounts on the left front guard may give a clue, or their tapping blocks / weld marks.

The hull does not seem to have the radio cover brackets, and the hull rear upper plate seems to have no bracket on the left side, but possibly a MG mount on the right, but it isn't clear.

Darryl, can you get your colleagues to photograph inside the hull please?
Gunners side guard and rear upper plate in particular.

Rob

NZ carrier?
 

Hi all,

I have been talking to one of my colleagues who is currently in Honiara. He is going to photograph the carrier in question.

This is what I’ve given him from the previous posts. He is not a military vehicle person though and I so I doctored a few photographs as well with a few arrows on where to look which I thought might help him.

I am not real familiar with NZ carriers. Mine is an aussie one and I am aware there are some differences. Can the NZ carrier experts please check this out and see if I am pointing him in the right direction?

• Inside the hull especially on the rear upper plate – the hull number is often stamped in the bulkhead above the rear differential
• front top of the right hand towing eye(looking for a number like 1210)
• left hand side of the towing eye top. Sometimes the " T " number is on the Left hand side towing eye top
• Middle towing eye. There is a number here usually stamped near its upper edge. If no centre eye, then check the top edge of the two lifting eyes.
• The ammo box mounts (weld marks) on the right front guard (looking from the front)

http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/811/h3fz.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/829/zsav.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/163/76wt.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/138/sq7o.jpg

That stack of cans
 

Good morning Darryl.
Some knowledgable contributor will no doubt answer your questions which are outside my area of familiarity.
I just wanted to comment on the jerrycans in the photo which I've only noticed on this occasion. They are all of the hybrid variety being of American type 'jam tin' construction but with the German style cam lock spout. These cans seem to have been exclusive to the USMC or maybe the SW Pacific and I've not encountered one in real life. Definitely a better proposition than the screw cap in my opinion and I wonder why they didn't standardise on them.
Apologies for the interjection but it aroused my curiosity.

Happy New Year to all.

David :sheep:

Hi Darryl,

The arrow in the first photo is pointing to the back plate. This is wrong, it should be pointing to the angle-iron immediately above the diff mounting bolts immediately behind the coupling, where the brake pipe is. This piece is never cut out of the back plate in any cut down carrier as it serves to help locate the diff assembly. The details for all Australian carriers are stamped on the top of the horizontal section of the angle-iron and generally a good sand down will reveal the maker, type of carrier and the carrier number. I don't know about the NZ or British carriers.

Good Luck & all the best for the festive season.

Rick.

Honiara LP2/LP2A carrier
 

Hi David,

Merry Xmas. How's it going? No worries. Yes, interesting what you say about the jerry cans. Most of the ones I have here seem to have that same lid.


Hi Rick,

Merry Xmas to you to. Thanks for that. I will move the arrow accordingly.

I note that the Jerry cans are marked "USMC" (United States Marine Corp" as apposed to the screw top ones which are normally marked "QMC" (Quarter Master Corp)
Did the Marines have their own spec, different from the U.S. Army?

Hi Lynn
The standard American screw top jerrycans for the US Army had QMC stamped either side low down on early production cans but later went over to just the letters US or USA in the same place.
You also find the screw top cans with USMC in place of the QMC or US/A so it appears that after a flirt with the cam lock type the Marines went over to the same can as the Army but with their own markings.

The US Marine Corp being an arm of the US Navy had a separate procurement system to the Army and often followed an independent course. Hence their use of International 6x6 and 4x4 trucks as against the Army GMC CCKW and Dodge WC standard vehicles. The adoption of the Johnson automatic rifle was another deviation.

On the G503 forum there is an area that is devoted to Jerrycans or Gerrycans in all their bewildering varieties. There seems to be more questions than there are answers but a great deal is known about them.

David

Serial number location
 

Hi Big D,
As far as I know, only Aussie carriers were stamp above the diff area.
Cheers
Andrew

NZ carrier?
 

Hi Andrew

Thanks for that. Do the rest of the photos and arrows look alright?

Lifting eyes.
 

Daryl,
The later NZ carriers were stamped on top of the front lifting eyes, so discard the photo of the back plate near your aerial bracket.

The photo of the front of your carrier should be modified with another arrow each side of the centre towing bracket, with the rear arrow deleted.

The pic inside the carrier of the gunners area should show the inside of the gunners slot too to see what gun mount was used.

Rob

Is the position of the ID plate another indicator?
The Australian built ones appear to all have them situated on the RF guard.
The New zealand ones are on the triangular top plate above the instrument cluster. Is this a point of difference between the Aust. and N.Z. carriers or are there differences on each side of the Tasman?

ID Plate
 

The early Kiwi carriers had the plate on the track guard like the Australian ones.

In later production it was moved to the top of the hull and welded above the instrument cluster. This is possibly to stop loss of the plate.

I think the first 520 NZ carriers were all issued to home based units during the war. 3 NZ Div took some to Guadalcanal but found them unsuitable and converted the carrier platoon to infantry. Given that a number of C8AX puddle jumpers ended up in Australia as war surplus, it is possible that a carrier was left behind.

I have a picture of a field full of carriers and other vehicles brought back to NZ from the Pacific. These include LP, UC and 3" Mortar types

We know some of these were swapped to USMC, but where they went is unknown.

Also the ones sold to the US and given to the Free French in the Pacific were from the later ESGC contract for 650 LP2A.

So, yes, a photo of the plate on top of the instrument panel would help.

Rob

Honiara LP2/LP2A carrier
 

Rob/Lynn,

Thanks for the replies. I'll get the changes made and send them to him this weekend.

Cheers.

Honiara LP2/LP2A carrier
 

Hi all,

I've finally got some photos back from Honiara. Apparently some rioting over there has held him up. Excuses!

Anyway, I'm not sure that these photos add any value to the discussion but I will post them for what it is worth. It looks like he has not sent (or taken) everything I've asked him to but judging by what he has sent I don't think many more photos will help.

The carrier seems to have been stripped long ago and the corrosion on it has probably prevented any markings being visible.

I'll let the experts on this forum judge and if you think I should ask for some more details, please let me know.

Attachment 63561 Attachment 63562 Attachment 63563 Attachment 63564 Attachment 63565

Honiara LP2/LP2A carrier
 

More photos.

Attachment 63566 Attachment 63567 Attachment 63568 Attachment 63569

My 5c worth
 

I will suggest it is a mid production NZ produced carrier from the first wartime batch of 520.

It shows two sets of holes for the MG mount which suggests it could take either of the heavy Vickers casying or the light UC style bren casting.

The centre towing eye and square tapping blocks also point to mid production.

Late production had no central eye, and most tapping blocks were circular.

Rob

This has been a most interesting and educational thread in regards to Aust vs Kiwi carriers and their identifying characteristics.

I am still none the wiser ref this BGC and if it is Aust or NZ, but have the following to add:

Early Aust BGC had a rectangular ID plate located on the RHF guard, this was later moved to the top of the triangular steel panel above the dash, and welded in place. Not sure what hull number or date this occurred but would have varied between manufacturers.

Some early Aust BGC had circular mounting blocks welded to the hull (my Vic Rail 731 does), but most had the common square mounting blocks welded to the hull.

It was a field mod to cut the centre front tow eye off, this was to reduce the incident of crews banging their hands on it when utilising the crank handle. This was later overcome by the centre tow eye not being installed in late production BGC; and a slightly longer crank handle extension rod procured. This mod is not documented in the DME book.

I have found several BGC that have a number stamped on the centre tow eye, it is not a hull number but a work order number or similar. For example, a BGC that has stamped '106' on the eye, it is a Aust LP2- very early due to the flare box mounting being by the gunners Left knee. 106 would make it a LP1.

The front hull gun mount has several holes in it, this feature is also on many Aust BGC, 2 of the 3 BGC that I have, have these holes in the same position. Not sure what they are for, but Rob may have a likely suggestion.
There was also a mod conducted in this area, but I will leave it for a new thread.

Not sure if I have assisted any. This hull does have square mounting blocks, flare box located left of the gun position. Not much else stands out.

Regards

Carriers at Henderson Field
 

A friend has just visited this carrier and sent me some fresh photos.

Looks like someone painted over the rust at some time.

Hi, I’m a little late in the game here but I own an Aussie carrier here in the US. As does my friend. We know of 2 other Aussie carriers as well. On in LA and one is Southern California owned by a crazy man. All carriers are within 50 serial #s of each other made by SAR. rumor was that they were at a depot near Sacramento California before being auctioned off.

Photo of US Carriers
 

I have just purchased this book.
Attachment 110500
IMG_3460 by tankienz, on Flickr

It was published in July 1944 following a visit to Guadalcanal by two members of the NZ National Film Unit who visited to shoot footage for newsreels. They also took stills.

The book includes this photo of LP2 in US service which I have not previously seen.

Attachment 110501
IMG_3476 by tankienz, on Flickr

Note the two colour camouflage and the number 2610 on the closest Carrier and what appears to be 2601 on the back Carrier. Unfortunately the book was published on newsprint quality paper so the photos are not clear. As NZ did not build 2600 LP2s I'm not sure what the significance of the numbers are

Paul,

Thanks for posting that picture here!

Somehow the use of Commonwealth materiel in US service is very interesting.

Hanno

Cross posting to the thread on a LP2A which was found on Tahiti, and was then shipped to France:

Heads Up: Australian LP Carrier in France?!?

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...2&d=1309768380

These are Australian Hull numbers. Interesting, the story goes back and forth between Aust production and NZ production Carriers being supplied to the US forces.

SAR Carriers
 

Interesting image. Interesting book. As Tony said, 2610 and 2601 correspond with Australian hull numbers. Both numbers fall within a group manufactured by SAR.

I have records of three LP2A carriers in the USA:
2595
2641
2674

All SAR carriers, and straddle the ones in the image. I also have a 2012 dated note that 2609 was under restoration in South Australia, which would tend to indicate that a complete 'batch' of numbers was not handed to the USMC, but odd ones to make up the required number, while still supplying local demands.

I'm guessing that the ones supplied to the USMC were from the orders placed for the EGSC for supply to other nations, as I've found no specific reference to a supply to the USAFIA or the USMC in particular, nor any returned by the US to the Commonwealth for credit to the Reverse Lend Lease account.

Edit: There is another (slim) possibility (and yes, it is another guess!): that the carriers were part of the equipment captured from the Japanese. The USMC are known to have captured quantities of equipment and used it against the former owners, including machine guns, Chevrolet and Ford trucks, engineer equipment, and so on. On page 74 of of the official US history of the Guadalcanal campaign there is an image of a Ford-Marmon Herrington LP3 artillery tractor found at Lunga Point. Its only possible source was an Australian artillery unit deployed to the Pacific/Malaya, and overrun in the first few months of the Japanese thrust south, and then used by the Japanese. There is an Aust MG carrier and a 25-pdr field gun in the collection of the AWM that were captured by the Japanese and used by them in areas remote from the point of capture. This makes the point that the Japanese were happy to use captured equipment and to re-locate it as needed.

Another rabbit burrow to dive into!!

Mike


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