Hi Mike,

You read my mind! After posting the information then thinking about it, that's what I will do. I can't get any better info than having an original to copy and that way even the light earth paint sample is preserved. Won't be the first replica on the truck. Already have a battery holder and two chain box lid replicas so another one won't matter!

Cheers,

Door check strap retainer screws
 

Good Day All,

Here's another snippet of miscellany which may be of interest:

Thought today, being a quiet day, I would look for some machine screws to fit the tapped holes in my doors for the check strap retainer screws. Luckily the tapped holes inside the passenger side door were unmolested as the screws must have gone missing years ago. Cannot say the same for the driver's side, however, where modern self tapping screws had been substituted damaging the original threads.

After looking at a number of Imperial size machine screws in my collection of which most were too large or to small in diameter or too coarse a thread I was stumped until I tried a tap from a cheap set of Japanese taps I picked up in the 80's. As it turned out it was a No.12-28 UNF threaded hole. See photos.

Ok, so now I knew what to look for so it should be easy to get the right screw- wrong!

Seems there are plenty of No.10 UNF machine screws (smaller) and 1/4 UNF screws (larger) around but No.12 screws are very hard to come by. Checked hardware store websites and bolt and nut supplier websites, no luck, then called Classic Vehicle Fasteners to no avail and finally by dumb luck searching for a while on the net, found that No.12-28 UNF Fillister head screws are available from gunsmith suppliers.

Have contacted my local gun dealer and indeed they can get them in so have ordered four. Perhaps others have found them here in Australia but if not try a local gunsmith for these obscure sized screws.

Always amazed at what various fasteners they used to put together these vehicles. Can add another one to the list.

Hope this is of some interest and help for other restorers.

Cheers,

PDR (paintless dent removal) for a fuel tank
 

Good Day All,

Has anyone had experience with using paintless dent removal techniques to remove a dent from a fuel tank?

Due to the internal baffles, it is impossible to get to the area of the dent from inside to push it out so reading about PDR thought that method might work. I don't think the little heat involved in the glue used to attach the pullers would be an issue on a tank that is empty and has been so for many months.

I have a 10 mm dent over a 250mm diameter area in the bottom of my F15-A tank, and although not a big issue, I would like to repair it. I had to pack it out with insertion rubber to make full contact on the front fuel tank bracket.

PDR slide hammer kits seem relatively inexpensive on-line. Professional repairers I contacted seem to get scared when you mention fuel tanks.

Any advice gratefully received.

And a Merry Christmas and a safe and Happy New Year to all fellow members.

Cheers,

Dent removal
 

Hi Jacques.
Have you considered using a magnet. I use them for all sorts of things mainly in groups for lifting heavy plates. Be very careful though they are super powerful do not get any part of you between them and steel.

https://www.frenergy.com.au/neodymiu...dia-162kg.html

Possible problem
 

Hi Jacques

Some of the CMPs had gas tanks that been tinned or coated in lead both inside and out, which might make it hard to get the stud to stick. Out of 5 tanks only two had this coating, both from my late production HUP.

If you have a stud gun try welding a stud to a can of water, if that works and you are concerned about gas fumes then fill your tank with water.

Photos please of dent removal process.

Recently I cut the ends out of Pattern 12 gas tank, the only thing that caught fire was 40 year collection of mouse nests. Tank has some large rust holes and I cut the ends out to real see how to fabricate new tanks. But now that see the rust is really localized to the holes, may just cut out the holes and weld in new steel, then weld the end panels back in. The plasma cutter takes out just enough for a really smooth but weld.


Cheers Phil

Hi Graeme,

Yes tried that. Used an old condemned magnetron magnet which I salvaged from a radar set on my ship. Darn powerful magnet but I was still able to pull it off the tank.

I use that magnet inside a plastic bucket on a bit of rope to pick up swarf from drilling steel. My kids used to laugh when I told them I was "taking the magnetic dog for a walk". Now it is just a lame Dad joke!
Very effective at getting every last bit of steel filings off the floor however.

Cheers,

Magnet for dent removal
 

Hi Graeme,

You got me thinking with your suggestion and a re-visit to my first attempt. The reason the magnet pulls off easily is because the relatively thin steel tank doesn't have enough material for the magnet to hold onto ie mass.

I use a bit of 50mm x 50mm x 2mm angle as a keeper for the magnet and it requires me to tip it away from the magnet just to break the grip on it and it still requires a great deal of effort to pull the keeper off the magnet. And yes, early in the piece I got a good pinch by not keeping fingers clear as I attached the keeper after using it.

If I can get a piece of say, 10mm thick flat bar into the area behind the dent perhaps the extra steel there will allow the magnet to hold with more force.

Stay tuned until after Christmas. I am getting an inspection camera/scope from Santa so I will be able to see if it can be done. Last thing I want is a big chunk of steel left stuck in the tank however.

And Phil, I think my tanks are lead coated inside and out. When I stripped the paint years ago there was virtually no rust under the paint except where the tank's coating had been scratched.

Cheers,

Terneplate
 

The fuel tanks were normally made from a lead (& a small amount of tin) -coated steel sheet called Terneplate.

Very common sheet for fuel tanks and for applications where deep pressing was required, as the lead/tin slid nicely against the die formers, allowing deeper pressing without tearing the steel sheet. Also a very easy sheet to run solder along joints to seal them.

Alas, has not been available for many years.

It may be part of the problem with adherence of the magnet, combined with the thin sheet steel, both of which diminish the magnet's 'grip'.

Mike

Fuel tank dent removal
 

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that info regarding coatings on the fuel tanks.

It can only add to the problem of the magnet gripping the steel.
Will see how the thicker steel bar behind the dent works in the new year if I can get it in (but mainly out) of the tank.

Here's a photo of the magnetron magnet and the "magnetic dog" in use.

Phil, do you or anyone else, have photos of a cut open fuel tank?

Cheers

I wonder if it would work to put a bunch of say 1/2" steel balls inside the tank to give the magnet something to stick to ? They would not put extra dents into the tank as they could adapt to the flexing of the metal and would be relatively easy to remove. I did think first that steel washers might work but they would tend to sit in a random stack which wouldn't work as well. the balls can move against each other to get into a single layer against the sheet steel and so the magnet has maximum pull on them. The problem here is seperation, any air gaps make a huge difference to the pull available.

Jaques - brilliant idea of the bucket and magnet to pick up swarf - I can't believe that it is new to me !

David

Fuel tank dent removal
 

Hi David,

Thanks for your good suggestion. As a matter of fact, I have about 10 large steel balls from CV joints. They are almost 1" diameter so if they fit in there, and don't get stuck, it might work. Can try it first on a similar gauge piece of sheet metal to see with how much force it sticks to it.

Should mention too, If anyone uses the magnet in the bucket trick makes sure you have a lid on it before starting the sweep otherwise you may be picking lots of swarf from the magnet. Once it all collects on the bottom of the bucket hold it over your trash bin, open the lid, and pull the magnet away from the bottom. All the swarf falls instantly into your bin.

Amongst the Christmas presents, a new grandchild is due on the 27th Dec so needless to say a lot of things are on hold until well into the new year.
Will let you know how it works when I resume work on the truck.

Cheers,

Fuel Tank Photos
 

Hi Jacques

I've started a new refference thread just on gas tanks with the photos of my C60L Pattern 12 gas tank. Started seperate thread to make it easier for the MLU search engine to find. Look under Fuel Tank C60L Information will try to make it turn up under "gas tank" and under "fuel tank"

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...d=1#post245866

Hope the photos show what you need, if they don't just let me know the tank is sitting on the work bench to be repaired or copied.

Cheers Phil

Fuel tank C60L- inside
 

Hi Phil,

Many thanks for those photos. Will study them to see if the steel balls/bar in the tank method will work at the dent, otherwise back to a bit more research into paintless dent removal equipment and procedures.

Cheers,

How about a photo?
 

Hi Jacques

Can you post a picture of the dent? Maybe somebody will have bright idea for an easy fix.

Cheers Phil

dent in fuel tank
 

Hi Phil,

Here is a photo of it in-situ. Can see how much rubber packing was required to make it sit level on the bracket without wobbling. Bracket is level- my camera wasn't!

It extends right to the corner where the retainer strap bolts down.

I will be taking it off the truck once I feel a solution is feasible, otherwise it may as well stay there. With some of the ideas here I think I may be on the right track.

Cheers,

Does the dent beyond the bottom?
 

Hi Jacques

Now I see the issue getting the tank to lay flat on the supports. As the tank doesn't leak and the loss of holding capacity is small, have you considered just filling the dent to reestablish a flat bottom?

If the dent was on the out side face I would consider a half inch hole on the back side to use a rod to gently tape out the dent from the back side. Then just plug the hole by soldering a patch ocer the hole.

Cheers Phil

fuel tank dent
 

Hi Phil,

Looking at your photos inside a fuel tank and looking at my dent I think I am lucky as it looks to be forward of the baffle plate based on the spot welds I can see on the bottom of my tank. It also means I don't have to fit steel through the limber holes in the bottom of the baffle to access the dent from inside. Unfortunately it is about 4 inches forward of the filler neck so there is not direct line to tap it out. Tried bent rods a while back but the bigger the diameter of the rod the less radius I could put on it to get it down the neck and I was working blind. A small diameter rod was ineffective. This was what got me thinking about PDR until I revisited using a magnet after Graeme's suggestion.

If the baffle was bent I reckon the strongest magnet in the world would not pull the bottom straight.

I may wait until I get my inspection camera at Xmas to see what I have there. In the meantime I will experiment with the magnet and steel balls, and bars of steel to see how much holding power I can generate.

It is not the end of the world if I cannot get the dent out but would be nice to remove it. As you said Phil, it doesn't really affect the tank capacity and it does not leak. I guess if I didn't know it was there it wouldn't bother me.

Attached is a better image of the dent from side on.

Cheers,

Cheers,

Jacgues,

Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress and thoughts to solve the problems you encounter!

I reckon they are scared of fuel tanks if they use tabs which are spot-welded in place.
If you can get your hands on a kit using hot melt glue to fix the tabs, I'd try that before moving on to the magnet method (which I am looking forward to see the results of).

Hanno

Magnetisn experiments- dent removal
 

Hi Hanno,

Thought today would try some magnetism experiments as per attached photos.
It is a lot easier to find out if it works on a workbench than trying to retrieve balls and steel bars out of a fuel tank!

I used a sheet of 1.1mm galvanized steel as a test. A bit thinner steel than a CMP fuel tank.

Unfortunately the results were disappointing:

Using seven 25mm diameter CV joint balls resulted in very little extra holding power than just the magnet alone. That could be caused though by the alloy used to make the balls just as stainless steel is non-magnetic.

I then tried a piece of steel bar 40 mm wide, by 15 mm thick, by 160 mm long. The holding power was significantly increased but I doubt it would be enough to pull a dent out of a tank. I was able to break it free with what I estimate was about 15kg of force.

So it's "back to the drawing board"

One good thing is a PDR technician returned my call and is actually willing to at least have a look at it in the New Year. Many businesses shut down for a few weeks during the December January period here in Australia so I will see what can be done in January. I am thinking if the hot glue method has the holding power it will do the job. Just have to see what his opinion is and what the cost estimate is if he can do it.

Will update this when the technician attends.

Cheers,

A long shot but.....
 

Had a look at the dents you are trying to pull out.

Have you tried soldering a brass bolt or copper tab ??? then use the typical dent puller.

We have had good success at the barn soldering pin holes in tank bottoms... we dimple the pin hole with a small ball pein hammer and clean the area to bare metal
.... we use an electrical soldering iron ......once sanded down they do not even show and do not leak. So soldering should give a very good bond...... to attach a puller to.

You maybe able to pull enough to be able to finish the job by using solder to fill any indentation left... then sand down.

We used an acid solution to clean out the inside and once rinsed and sand blasted on the outside we discovered a lot of pin holes..... then we inserted a 12v bulb inside the tank and closed the barn doors....... there were a whole bunch of shinning little stars which were not seen in daylight.... all were dimpled and soldered. For good measure we used a gas tank sealer on the inside...... a real messy job but worthwhile.

Cheers

More extreme violence
 

Jacques you may even consider Phil's method and cut the end out before panel beating the bottom and rewelding a plate in.
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...highlight=tank

Unnecessary word of caution
 

Hi All

Please anyone considering repair of fuel tank, remember the risk of fire or explosion.

The tank I recently opened with plasma torch was known to have been open (no cap) to the elements for many years. Had there been any hint of fuel, probably would have filled the tank with water while cutting.

I know that people who have responded to this thread are well aware of the risks, I'm more concerned with people doing a web search on fuel tank repair not being aware of the hazards.

Cheers Phil

Hi Bob,

Haven't tried that method with a brass bolt or copper tab but it sounds like it is definitely worth a try. I am sure it will have a lot more holding power if the bolt or tab has a reasonable size area. I will give it a try on the bench first.

I like the idea too, that not a lot of heat or an open flame is used in soldering.

I repaired a pinhole in the other tank on the top where the retainer strap had rubbed a hole in the tank similar to your method. Dimpled it slightly and filled it with JB Weld. Great stuff.
At that time I didn't have a decent size electrical soldering iron and there was no way I wanted an open flame from a Bernz-O-Matic near a hole into a tank, even though the tank had been empty for years and washed our just prior to the repair. To do it again I would consider your method with the big electric soldering iron I now have.

Anyway guys, this thread has been very helpful and all suggestions have been gratefully received. I, and many others, have a better idea of the issues of repairing a dent in an enclosed tank. I even enjoyed my magnetic experiment that didn't work. Just more info to add to the wealth of information and ideas out there.

As Phil so rightly posted just be careful around fuel tanks with whatever repairs you do to it. Most of us know that but there is always someone perhaps new to auto repairs or restoration who doesn't realize the risks.

Have a safe and Merry Christmas and I will continue on after the Holidays with trying to get that darn dent out!

Cheers,

Jacques, I like your inquisitive approach to solve problems and enjoy reading about it.

Thank you very much for your informative posts, I hope you continue to share your insights in the new year. Enjoy the Christmas break!

regards,
Hanno

Ford CMP Blitz miscellany
 

You would need to purge the tank with exhaust gasses from a vehicle for a couple of hours before you did anything with heat,one old way from my panel beating days was to clean the area thats damaged and solder a stick of body solder on to the damaged area let it cool and pull the stick and hopefully the dent will come out,modern body shops have dent pullers that weld a stud on and can be pulled as well.
The inside of the tank is soldered all over so that might be a problem down the track with heating it. it may be better to fill the dent or the big extreme make a new tank which i have done.

Little bracket for Bridge Disks
 

Gents,

Not so sure about the dates of the tabs appearing.

My truck has the plate on the front (its a 1942) and the other 1942 cowl (truck now deceased) I have, has the tabs described on the front. (sorry hard to see with a very small sized picture!!!)

These pictures are over 10 years old.

Cheers,

Ian

Bridge Disk and Tac sign holders
 

Hi Ian,

I am not sure but the one bracket on the right side of the cowl in your photo looks like a Tac sign holder similar to the one in the attached photo.

My first truck lacked the welded on tabs for the Bridge disk also, but had the Tac sign bracket on the left side of the front cowl. The Bridge weight limit was painted on the top of the right hand cowl.

The spacing on my TAC sign mounting holes are 4" apart but the bridge disk mounting holes are 5" apart. That might not mean anything, however, depending on the diameter of a bridge disk

Perhaps someone more learned in vehicle markings can shed some more light on it.

Cheers,

Ford CMP transmission rebuild
 

Good Day,

Thought I might dust off this old thread.

Been doing a lot of various work on the F15-A since the last post here. Much of it has been covered elsewhere such as bending up new brake and fuel lines, fabricating wiring harnesses, making hand brake cable clips etc.

Recently I have been rebuilding my transmission and in the process, swapping NOS gears and shafts from one case to another.

Thought the following may be of interest:

Removing the countershaft is fairly straightforward. A bit of persuasion with a hammer and brass drift is all that is needed. Getting access to the reverse idler shaft is another matter.
I made up a mini Jack as shown in the picture using a bit of ½” UNC threaded rod 4” long, ¾” pipe 2-1/2” long, 3 x ½-UNC nuts, I x washer, and 2 x 13/16” AF spanners. The short one I cut down from an old bent one of my Dad's
It worked very well. On one transmission the shaft did not want to budge easily so I heated the boss at the shaft with just a propane torch not wanting to put too much heat into the casting or risk breaking the boss with too much force on the jack. After about 30 seconds of applied heat it moved very easily. Probably just needed to soften up the gunk between the shaft and the boss. The brass drift in the countershaft holes keeps the cut down spanner from turning and frees up a hand in a tight space.

I salvaged the bearing retainer rings from a third transmission. Struggled with a screwdriver slipping off the rings, and chasing the rings around the groove in the case. I thought if I could grip them that would be an easier way to remove them. After trying various pliers which could not get the right angle onto them I remembered my Vice Grip nut holder pliers.
It worked perfectly. It has the correct angle to reach inside the bearing pocket to grip the rings. Pulled them out in about 10 seconds each after wasting half an hour trying other methods.
Those nut holder pliers are a great tool and especially if there is no one around to hold a spanner "on the other side". And as shown, they can do other things that are not their main purpose.

Hope this is of some interest.

Cheers,

Thank you for more helpful hints.
In creating your jacking bolts, you may find that a fine thread will apply force more smoothly and maybe more force on the parts you want to move for the same effort on your part due to the smaller angle on the threads.

Jacking bolt- transmission reverse idler shaft
 

Hi Grant,

Good thinking! I used what was available but a 1/2-20 UNF thread would probably be better for more force. I am sure it will give others ideas based on what they have at hand.

Cheers,