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Ortona remembered

Read Ortona remembered and let me know what you think of it.

I'll be back later with a question for you.

Thanks,
Hanno

Quote:

Ortona remembered

By PETER WORTHINGTON
Though no one knew it at the time, this story began at Christmas 1943, in Italy, with soldiers of the 1st
Canadian Infantry Division fighting to dislodge Germany’s crack 1st Parachute Division from Ortona, in what
was the toughest battle Canadians fought in Italy, if not WWII, and which is remembered as the “Stalingrad of
the West.”
Jump ahead to 1998. A former corporal and tank commander with the Three Rivers Regiment (now the 12th
Armoured Regiment) in that battle, was Ted Griffiths (universally known as “Tojo”), later a regular force major,
and after that executive assistant to then-Finance Minister John Turner, and now retired. He ran with the idea
of a Christmas reunion in Ortona.
Originally, the late Joe Wilhelm, for 17 years the Catholic Archbishop of Kingston, Ont., felt a “Banquet of
Reconciliation” with veterans of that fight — not only Canadians but also their erstwhile enemies — would be
an appropriate gesture to put the bitterness of war behind them.
Especially over Christmas, when that merciless battle was fought. Wilhelm was the chaplain for Canadians in
Italy and won the Military Cross, Tojo Griffiths began organizing, but who’d provide funding?
“Ortona was probably the toughest street fighting of the war,” Tojo recalled. “It wasn’t just house-to-house, but
floor-by-floor.” The Canadians developed “mouse-holing” — entering a building by blowing a hole in the wall to
avoid booby-trapped doorways.
Tojo approached Veterans Affairs for support, but its minister, Fred Mifflin, a retired Admiral, gave it the cold
shoulder: Sorry, who cares about the Italian campaign.
As a longtime friend, Tojo persuaded me to write a couple of articles about the proposed reunion.
The Ottawa Sun’s Earl McRae and broadcaster Lowell Green of Ottawa’s CFRA reacted and appealed to
readers for funds.
Peter Goldring, then Reform MP for Edmonton East and the party’s Veterans Affairs critic pounced and both
raised funds and administered them for the Ortona visit. Private donations came in.
Lo, the madcap scheme of Tojo Griffiths became a resounding success, as aging warriors of that long-ago
battle gathered in Ortona, made their peace, bonded and shared memories.
Thirty Canadians from four regiments who fought that battle (B.C.’s Seaforth Highlanders, the Loyal Edmonton
Regiment, the Three Rivers Regiment and the Van Doos), reunited with their aging German counterparts
(There was a tense moment when a Canadian vet offered to show a German vet the finger of a dead
paratrooper he’d amputated as a souvenir).
Every Christmas since, the city of Ortona marks the occasion with a ceremony at the Canadian cemetery.
Veterans from both sides make a pilgrimage to what in WWII was an insignificant fishing village at the end of
Germany’s WWII Gustav line at the Moro River. They remember and reconcile — new friends, new allies, new
respect.
Former German paratrooper Joe Klein spoke for all when he recalled: “We weren’t enemies, we were
opponents.”
Jump ahead to 2006. Tojo, a robust 80-something, says the reunion idea was so successful, there was money
left over to commission a statue honouring the battle — the first such memorial for Canadians in Italy (a dozen
or so are in France and Belgium) which now stands in Ortona’s Piazza Publiscito.
Named the Price of Peace, it depicts a mortally wounded soldier being soothed by a comrade kneeling at his
side.
Tojo says the statue moves many to tears. Every day, two elderly ladies, Francesca and Maria LaSorda who,
as teenagers did laundry for Canadian soldiers after the battle, bring fresh flowers to the statue.
“How they manage it is beyond me,” says Tojo. “They’re as poor as church mice but they never fail with the
flowers.”
So impressed was Canadian Ambassador to Italy, Robert Fowler, that when then-Governor General Adrienne
Clarkson visited Ortona in 2004, she presented the sisters with an engraved silver tray.
Ortona’s city fathers, have since designated a restored 15th century convent as a “Museum of Remembrance”
of the battle — filled mostly with what citizens of the area scrounged from the battlefield, supplemented with
items the Canadians who fought there have donated.
The Seaforth Highlanders were the most generous, providing a uniformed mannequin, but other regiments of 1
Division have been reluctant to part with items.
“One would never know that the Loyal Eddies were there,” says Tojo.
The Princess Pats, in Calgary, parted with nothing, though the RCR chipped in with a corporal’s tunic.
Members of the West Nova Scotia Regiment donated $5,000 to the museum.
What city fathers really wanted was a Sherman tank, with its 75mm gun, as a monument.
“Too bad they didn’t ask for it 60 years ago,” quips Tojo. “A lot of them were lying around after the battle.”
As it turned out, Canadian military attaches scoured Europe and found that the Dutch War and Resistance
Museum in Overloon had a Sherman which they’d sell for $90,000.
“We didn’t have a dime,” recalls Tojo, but the Honorary Colonel of the Three Rivers Regiment, Lt.Gen. Jim
Gervais (retired), and Harry Steele of Nova Scotia and Seymour Schulich, Michael Wekerie and John Cleghorn
of Toronto, combined to raise the money to buy the Sherman — which Ambassador Fowler presented to
Ortona.
Fowler was then made an honorary citizen of the city.
Today, the Price of Peace statue and the Sherman tank at Ortona are the only WWII monuments marking what
Canadian soldiers did in Italy, all done through private donations.
The other reminders of Canada at Ortona, are 1,375 graves with small, carved maple leaves on headstones in
the meticulously tended Moro River Canadian War Cemetery.
Some 25% of 5,900 Canadians killed in Italy in WWII, died freeing Ortona.
Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan today, are proving worthy carriers of the torch of their comrades at Ortona, so
long ago — this time, allied with the Germans.

November 12, 2006

Historically, it's factually correct, albeit obviously short on detail. I was in on the raising of money for the reunion visit, with a couple of web pages and a one-page flyer I did up and distributed, but while I knew of the sculpture, I was unaware of the Sherman and of the museum.

If you want to look at what's left of the original pages I did up, click here:

http://www.mapleleafup.org/histories...index_bak.html

Some of the pics and links don't work, so I haven't put it online as part of MLU. I should probably fix it up, but I have other priorities right now...

Re: Ortona remembered

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Read Ortona remembered and let me know what you think of it.

I'll be back later with a question for you.

Hanno..
I have in my possession a letter dated 11 Sept 1999 from the designer/artist of the Ortona sculpture "The Prince of Peace",Robert Surette which states...

Quote:

I hereby give limited authouity to Alex Blair to use the image of the sculpture Prince of Peace to release and reproduce on the MLU website and any other web sites he deems necessary...
As of 11 Sept./99
Signed
Robert Surette..

Robert is a friend of mine and I took many pictures for him and us back then and they are somewhere on this site..
Having done the photography and having had the opportunity to get down and personal with this sculpture I can tell you it would make a stone cry..The feelings that this sculpture radiates is indescribable...
To see it in the reality of what it stands for and to touch it is something that must be experienced ...I have no words for the feeling that overcame me when I was photographing it..
Dig around and find them and put them back on..I have them around here somewhere but where...???

What saddens a lot of people here in the Netherlands (including me!) is this:

Quote:

What city fathers really wanted was a Sherman tank, with its 75mm gun, as a monument.

“Too bad they didn’t ask for it 60 years ago,” quips Tojo. “A lot of them were lying around after the battle.”

As it turned out, Canadian military attaches scoured Europe and found that the Dutch War and Resistance Museum in Overloon had a Sherman which they’d sell for $90,000.

The Overloon museum management, in their eternal wisdom, decided to sell a genuine Overloon battle Sherman veteran. Not just any old Sherman, but good ole "Cookie". This M4 Sherman was part of Task Force Brown, Combat Command "A", 7th tank division, and was abandoned by it's crew when it ran in a ditch during the battle. As someone who spent many years on compiling the Sherman Register, I can tell you that of the thousands of still surviving Sherman tanks, only few have a known war history. Even less are left at the spot where they fought for freedom. This is a truly unique tank!

Now the Ortona memorial - which I wholehartedly support - is graced with a Sherman of a type the Canadians did not even use. For a budget of $90,000 I could have gotten them a host of Shermans to choose from.

Hanno

(picture source)

Ah, now your question makes sense... I wonder why they elected to sell, given the historical significance of the thing? A moment of weakness, or are they cash-strapped?

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Ah, now your question makes sense... I wonder why they elected to sell, given the historical significance of the thing? A moment of weakness, or are they cash-strapped?

I can't fathom it, and I don't think there is an excuse for it - even though the Sherman now serves a worthy cause. In a way I think the "Canadian military attaches [who] scoured Europe" didn't do a job good enough and can be rightly blamed for not being sensitive to appreciating artefacts of historical significance. The Dutch government is to be blamed for not having an adequate system to prevent historical artefacts being exported.

As you can see, I am well and truly p|ss€d off.

Those who feel the same can sign a petition against the sale of this Sherman here (I am still working on a proper response, but have to get over my anger first).

Rant over.

Thanks,
Hanno

Is there an English version of this petition? Secondly, are you inferring that the tank could actually be brought BACK to Overloon, presumably if a replacement could be found, or is this simply an exercise in showing Overloon one's displeasure?

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Is there an English version of this petition?

Not yet, I'll work on this.

Quote:

Secondly, are you inferring that the tank could actually be brought BACK to Overloon, presumably if a replacement could be found, or is this simply an exercise in showing Overloon one's displeasure?

Indeed, I think Cookie should be brought back to Overloon! There are many surviving Sherman tanks in Italy - see the FERREA MOLE website - many of which are government property and neglected. Any of these could be properly repainted and set up at the Ortona memorial. See below for an M4A4 which would be much more suitable than an incorrrect M4.

How can we get those involved in the Ortona memorial to revert their actions?

Hanno

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
How can we get those involved in the Ortona memorial to revert their actions?

Yes, the A4 would be much better for all concerned. Try writing to Peter Worthington through the Editor at editor@tor.sunpub.com. Put something right at the top of your email like this:

URGENT - PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO PETER WORTHINGTON ASAP

It might help.

Give me an English translation and I'll also sign your petition.

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Give me an English translation and I'll also sign your petition.

Kees Huyser provided a partial translation of the petition:

Quote:

"To the National War and Resistance Museum Overloon

We have heard that the museum has sold one its objects, a 7th Armoured Division Sherman tank, to Italy where the tank is now a war monument.

We, the undersigned, have a problem with this decision. This tank is an original relic of WW2, a part of our history which has changed our world and society more than any other event. This vehicle is one of the reasons the museum exists. The tank was taken out of action in the direct vicinity of Overloon and, like other remnants of the Overloon Battle, used to found the original museum. It was actually one of the first exhibits of the museum.

That this tank has now been shipped to Italy to function as a monument to the Canadians which fought there saddens us. We have the utmost respect for those who have fought for our freedom and for that of other peoples and wholeheartedly agree that the people to whom this monument is dedicated totally deserve it, but believe the decision the sell this tank is wrong for the following reasons:

This particular Sherman is for us a direct, tangible link with the history of our country, the people who fought for our freedom and the Overloon Battle in particular. Therefore a lot has been taken away from us.
What makes this decision even more painfull is the fact that this particular type of Sherman is not representative for the tanks which the Canadian Forces used in Italy. A competely different type of Sherman was used there. As conservators of a museum which focusses on tanks and armoured vehicles you ought to realise a part of Dutch history is wasted on the erection of a erronous monument in another country.

We see your task as guardians of Dutch history and are very disappointed with your decision.
We hope you will be able to revert the situation."

I call on all G104 members to sign this petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/sherman1/petition.html

A quick update: this news has hit the local radio and newspaper (see article in Dutch below). In defence the museum claims Cookie's history was unknown :eek: Attached goes a picture dating from the 1950s.

H. (still :mad: )

Quote:

De Gelderlander 04-01-2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

‘Cookie’ is naar Italië, tot woede van de fans
Donderdag, 4 januari 2007 - Ze zijn ontzet, de verzamelaars en liefhebbers van oorlogsattributen. Want het Liberty Park in Overloon heeft een tank verkocht. Niet zomaar een tank, het is ‘Cookie’. „Het hart van de collectie“, zeggen de kenners. „Nee hoor“, zegt het museum. „Een tank waarvan de historie onbekend is.“

Bert Lindeboom begrijpt er helemaal niets van. „Ze hadden het ding nooit mogen verkopen. Er zijn elders nog zoveel tanks te vinden, dat ze nou net déze naar Italië moeten sturen...“

Lindeboom is lid van Twenot, een organisatie van liefhebbers van militaire voertuigen. Twenot is woedend op de directie van het Liberty Park in Overloon. Het oorlogsmuseum heeft enkele maanden geleden een tank uit de collectie verkocht. Een Shermantank van het type M4, met de bijnaam ‘Cookie’. Tankbemanningen gaven hun voertuigen vaak een bijnaam.

De directie van het museum bevestigt de verkoop. Maar begrijpt niets van de ophef. Adjunct-directeur Jan van Berlo legt uit wat er is gebeurd. „We kregen een verzoek van Canadese veteranen. Zij hebben deelgenomen aan een slag in Ortona, in Italië. Jaarlijks herdenken ze daar die slag en ze wilden er graag een tank uit de Tweede Wereldoorlog neerzetten, als monument. De Canadezen zijn ook ónze bevrijders en daarom stonden wij positief tegenover dat verzoek. Na de komst van het Marshallmuseum, vorig jaar, is onze collectie op onderdelen overcompleet. Dus hebben wij de Canadezen een Shermantank aangeboden.“

Nou ja, aangeboden. De tank is verkocht, geeft Van Berlo toe. Hoeveel de deal heeft opgeleverd, wil hij niet zeggen. Wel dat het geld niet gebruikt wordt voor de museumexploitatie, maar in een speciaal aankoopfonds is gestort. „Daarmee kunnen we objecten verwerven en de collectie aanvullen.“

Volgens Van Berlo heeft de tank geen bijzondere geschiedenis. „Er is niets over de achtergrond bekend“, zegt hij. „Er was dus geen reden om de tank hier te houden.“

Hanno Spoelstra uit Hillegom, kenner van Shermantanks, heeft wel een idee over de prijs. „Volgens een Canadese krant gaat het om 90.000 dollar (ruim 68.000 euro, GF), bijeengebracht door de Canadese veteranen. “

Volgens Spoelstra, die ook meewerkte aan het naar Nederland halen van de Shermantank die in Mill staat [http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/.../restore7.html], kun je voor zo’n bedrag gemakkelijk een andere tank krijgen. „Voor die van Mill hoefden we enkel de transportkosten van Engeland naar Nederland te betalen. Kun je nagaan.“

Spoelstra en andere liefhebbers bestrijden de lezing dat de tank geen bijzondere waarde heeft. „Cookie is gebruikt door de Amerikaanse 7de Pantserdivisie. In het begin van de Slag om Overloon, in 1944, raakt hij vast in een greppel en heeft de bemanning hem verlaten. Hij is ongeschonden uit de slag gekomen en objecten als deze vormden de basis voor het latere museum. Je kunt de tank gerust het hart van de collectie noemen.“

Ook Bert Lindeboom weet zeker dat het om de historische tank gaat. „Dat heeft de museumdirectie in oude folders ook altijd verteld“, zegt hij. Lindeboom vindt de verkoop aan Canadezen ook een belediging van de Amerikanen. „Slechts een kleine groep Amerikanen heeft aan onze bevrijding meegewerkt, namelijk in Overloon en wel met díe tank. Cookie hoort gewoon in Overloon.“

Dat het inderdaad om Cookie gaat, wil Van Berlo wel toegeven. „Maar die namen werden er na de oorlog door vrijwilligers vaak opgeschilderd“, zegt hij. Twenot heeft al meer dan vierhonderd handtekeningen verzameld onder een petitie tegen de verkoop. Van Berlo heeft die petitie nog niet gezien. Of het iets uithaalt, is de vraag. De tank staat al in Italië.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.gelderlander.nl/maasland/article976250.ece

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Indeed, I think Cookie should be brought back to Overloon! There are many surviving Sherman tanks in Italy - see the FERREA MOLE website - many of which are government property and neglected. Any of these could be properly repainted and set up at the Ortona memorial. See below for an M4A4 which would be much more suitable than an incorrrect M4.

The unbelievable thing is that the Overloon museum has an anonymous M4A4 since the vehicles of the General Marshall Museum were added to their collection . . .

H.

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data.../imm022_23.jpg

Re: Ortona remembered

Quote:

From Ortona remembered
What city fathers really wanted was a Sherman tank, with its 75mm gun, as a monument.

A quick search yielded some information about the actual type of Sherman tank used at the Ortona battle:

"Sherman III [M4A2] of the Three River Regiment in Ortona, Dec 1943. The stowage scattered about the tank is not untypical of an armoured unit in combat conditions. PAC Photo."
Source: www.canadiansoldiers.com

Re: Re: Ortona remembered

Quote:

From www.canadiansoldiers.com
Sherman III [M4A2] of the Three River Regiment in Ortona, Dec 1943.

I'm not sure about the correct identification by canadiansoldiers.com, especially since other pictures show the Three Rivers Regiment equipped with Sherman V / M4A4 tanks during the battle at Ortona.

Picture source: www.wwii.ca

Cookie dressed up as "Athena" . . .

Source: Un carro armato canadese entra in città dopo oltre 60 anni

Google translation:

Quote:

ORTONA. It? arrived yesterday morning, arousing interest and a lot of memories in the local population, the Sherman Tank donated to the city of Ortona by a group of Canadian veterans. The vehicle, purchased, restored and transported at the expense of veterans, will be placed temporarily in Piazza Plebiscito near the monument? The Price of Peace? donated anch? it years ago by Canadian veterans.

Ted Griffith, president of the association? Veterans'Association Three Rivers Regiment? who fought with great courage in Ortona during the Second World War, and that he wanted to personally follow all the stages of the journey from Liberty Park Museum in Overloon (Netherlands) where it was bought up in Ortona, was received on his arrival this morning by the mayor Nicola Mallards.
The medium and its final position, as a monument in memory of the tragic battle of December '43 that cost the lives of 1314 civilians Ortona 1375 Canadian soldiers and about a thousand German soldiers, will be presented to the city in a ceremony that will be held Monday, July 31 at 11.00 in Piazza Plebiscito ..
In the presence of the regional authorities will also be given the Honorary Citizenship Ambassador Robert Fowler of Canada in Italy, commissioned by the City Council unanimously.
The motivation reads: " ? to have increased over the years, the link between the Canadian people and the city of Ortona, united by the tragic memory of the battle of 1943, and for demonstrating the presence of a constant feeling of his personal friendship and Canada against all Ortonesi. The high sense of attachment to the values of peace and solidarity, shared by citizens of Ortona, are the mark of distinction of a man who in addition to having represented his nation with honor has been an example to all. "
This opportunity will represent the dismissal of Robert Fowler from the city of Ortona as Ambassador of Canada after concluding his official mandate.
"Another important manifestation-Mallards said the mayor-to seal the bond of affection and gratitude to the city of Ortona for Canada and for the many soldiers who fought and died to liberate the city. Moreover greet Ambassador Robert Fowler, who is back in Canada, with our most important recognition, honorary citizenship ". 29/07/2006 9:04

This is a picture of the memorial at Ortona - striking!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...anadese_01.jpg
Source: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linea_Gustav

The Sherman looks like an afterthought to the memorial as it appears to just be 'parked' like any other vehicle.
On a separate subject, when a tank is set up like a memorial (as in this case) why not have a sculptor cast the kit and weld it to the exterior of the vehicle? The tank shown here looks like it is factory fresh and has never had a crew. At least with helmets, small packs, cookers, cam nets, etc.. attached, the visitor would get a more realistic idea of what the tank and crew looked like.

Quote:

Originally posted by servicepub
The Sherman looks like an afterthought to the memorial as it appears to just be 'parked' like any other vehicle.

Indeed, one could look at the former Soviet states for some nice examples of dramatic tank memorials (source).

What about this one, eh? (source).

Owen and Paul from WW2 Talk have just visited Ortona. It looks as if Cookie has been moved and left to disappear into the undergrowth.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/italy/1...a-sherman.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 93623)

More on the battle for Ortona: Armchair General magazine > Canadians in Italy, Part 1, The Battle of Ortona.

H.

Dec 01, 2009 15:34 ET
Canadians Remember the Brutal Battle of Ortona in Italy

ORTONA, ITALY--(Marketwire - Dec. 1, 2009) - The ancient town of Ortona holds grim memories for Canadians. Sixty-six years ago it was the site of some of the most bitter fighting of the Second World War. A Government of Canada delegation, led by the Honourable Greg Thompson, Minister of Veterans Affairs, stopped in Ortona today as they visited a number of historic sites with great significance for Canadians in the Italian Campaign from 1943 to 1945. Local citizens joined the delegation in a moving floral-laying ceremony at the Price of Peace monument.

"The price for freedom during the Italian Campaign was high," Minister Thompson told the gathering of Veterans, Ortona citizens and visiting Canadian students, adding that nearly 6,000 Canadians lost their lives and some 20,000 were wounded or taken prisoner of war. "Freedom is never free. The values of democracy, freedom, human rights and the rule of law that Canadians fought and died for in Ortona and throughout the 20-month campaign are the same values our Canadian Forces men and women continue to protect today."

Today, Canada also paid special tribute to a Canadian soldier, Lance-Sergeant John Aubrey Matthew of The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. A re-dedication ceremony was held at the Moro River Cemetery in honour of the soldier, whose grave has been identified. A grave marker formerly indicating "a soldier of the 1939-1945 war" now bears his name.

Over the next week, the members of the delegation which includes Veterans, representatives of Veterans' organizations and youth, will continue to visit historic sites relevant to Canadians in the Italian Campaign. Already, they have visited the Cassino War Cemetery where 855 Canadians lie buried and another 194 Canadians, who have no known grave, are remembered. They will also visit various other cemeteries where rows of white headstones are a sombre reminder of the cost of war.

For more information on the Second World War or to view daily reports with photos of the events in Italy, visit www.vac.gc.ca. To watch interviews with Veterans of the Italian Campaign, search "Heroes Remembers" and "Italy" on this site.

You can also visit the Canada Remembers Facebook page or YouTube channel to share your thoughts on the Italian Campaign. How will you remember?

For more information, please contact
Veterans Affairs Canada
Heather MacDonald
Media Relations Officer
613-992-7428

or

Office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs
Richard Roik
Director of Communications
613-996-4649
Click here to see all recent news from this company

:remember:remember :support :support :salute:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 65389)

In defence the museum claims Cookie's history was unknown :eek: Attached goes a picture dating from the 1950s.

Here are two more pictures of Cookie taken at the museum during the early post-war years. The museum was not much more than a collection of relics on display on the former battlefield. Pictures 3-5 are included to show more of the museum's atmosphere during the early years.

H.

Attachment 57899

Attachment 57900 Attachment 57901 Attachment 57902 Attachment 57903

These are photo's i took from the former M4 "Cooky" now on a roundabout outside the city of Ortona on an industrial estate.Not anywhere near the statue of the fallen soldier and his comrade coming to his aid in the city centre
cheers, Tom

Attachment 65125 Attachment 65126 Attachment 65127 Attachment 65128 Attachment 65129

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...Picture270.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...Picture269.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...Picture268.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...Picture267.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...Picture266.jpg

Another photo of Cookie, most likely taken somewhere in the 1960s:

Attachment 110375

Source: https://proxy.archieven.nl/0/6299426...14CEF5897CC3E2

Read some background on The Price of Peace Monument at the Canadian Heroes Square, erected by a group of Canadian Veterans, remembering the fierce battle that took place during Christmas 1943.

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remem...ncesca-lasorda