Carrier damage to pavement?
 

Hi folks
Exploring the opportunity to put a couple of carriers in an event next year in Pennsylvania on a 14 mile road convoy and ending with a reenactment battle in a town square district.

I am trying to gather documentation to support allowing bren carriers to be used in the convoy. You may know that in the States, metal tracked vehicles are not allowed on the roads.

That is due to the fact that really, all metal tracked vehicles are construction equipment and their tracks have grousers or cleats and would tear up asphalt paving.

No one making highway laws factors in Bren carriers!

So, since they are allowed in the UK and the EU on highways, Does anyone have any leads on tech documentation or road regulations that set the weight or track styles that allow them to be legal?

I know a carrier's weight foot print is less than a city bus's footprint, but does anyone have better documentation?

leads to government websites that have that data is fine also.

ANy help is greatly appreciated!!

Carriers on public roads
 

You need to show them my DVD "Year of the Carrier" where we had a large number of carriers on the roads in hot weather and I'm fairly sure there were no issues about track damage.

They do leave light coloured marks which disappear in a very short time with other traffic driving over them, a little like chalk marks.

Jim,

UK is part of the EU and allows them on the road, you can even put license plates on them and get a track driver's licence. You can drive one to work every day legally!

But, despite the fact that the EU tries to align laws and regulations across member countries, no tracked vehicles are allowed on the road in The Netherlands. One does need to get a permit for a special event, or make use of some of the loopholes which undoubtedly there are once you classify a carrier as agricultural vehicle or somesuch.

One thing is for sure: carriers are so light they do not damage the road in any way. If I were you I'd look into the maximum permissible load per square inch allowed in the highway code. The authorities will be astounded how much damage a big semi-rig is doing by compressing the tarmac with each wheel passing over and over again, most certainly when compared to the light load of a carrier. That is the prime function of tracks: spread the given weight of a vehicle over a greater area, so the vehicle sinks into the ground to a lesser extent. M29 Weasels have a lighter footprint than a walking soldier!

HTH,
Hanno

uk regs state that you need to have 35 sq inches per ton and no part of the track less than 1/2" wide.
so a 4 ton carrier would need 140 sq inches on the road which is well below what a carrier actually puts down. whether that will persuade the powers that be is another matter but at least you have a place to start your argument.
good luck

rick

Hmm... don't think that will stop the Germans invading again... but I suppose it's worth a try.

;-)

Tim

Oh yes, the MoD can of course drive tracked vehicles over the road, but only in a convoy. But possibly the Military Police do not to have to drive their YPR765's in convoy?

Knowing the Germans, and as close neighbours do, they would probably file for a convoy to notify us of their advance :smoker:

Attachment 75998

While living in NY I contacted the D.O.T and they came to look at my T16 running on my freshly paved driveway and they were satisfied that no damage occurred and than allowed me to run in the parade in Hyde Park.That can be seen in the videos of the town parade 2012 and 2013.I would run it Memorial day and the 4th of July.

In a straight line, the carrier will cause no damage. But in my recent experience, on a hot day a 180° turn will find any weak spots in the road surface under the locked track.

Which jurisdiction owns the roads, municipal, country or state? They will have been built to different standards of road bed, supporting layers and thicknesses of asphalt. Somewhere I read an engineer's comment that older asphalt was harder because the oil refineries weren't as efficient at getting all the assorted hydrocarbons out of the feed stock. Modern refineries are much better at making better fuels with less air pollution, and the remaining tar is less sticky and durable.

Speed of the run is another factor to consider. Higher speed will mean the steering and braking inputs will be putting more stress on the road surface. If you intend to putt putt along in 2nd gear, the carrier's trackpad 'moment' will be long enough to make the corrections without likely scuffing or skids. But as Rob mentioned, pivot turns and hard stops will dig deeper.

Thanks Everyone! That's the kind of supporting info I am looking for.

If anyone else has more to add, please!! Do!!!

This will be for next year's Battle of New Oxford, PA event.

Next year, they have arranged to do a para drop near the town so they are styling it as Holland and Market Garden, so that year, the British reenactment community will get point for the public battle into town.

Amazingly, the town officials let us run a scripted battle in the four blocks around their town square, with a 15 mile convoy into town on country lanes from the National Park site of Eisenhower's Farm, outside of Gettysberg PA.

If anyone wants to come down for that event and fall in with us solo, or as a unit, please get in touch. If you want to bring a vehicle, there are some compensations for that (won't pay for transport from Ontario and back sadly, but camping at Ike's Farm is free and we have a number of 160 pound tents we can set up for those sleeping on site.

My personal agenda woul;d be to wheedle every Commonwealth vehicle in North AMerica to come to this and flat show up the Yanks and their jeeps and CCkWs!

One thing to check in event planning
 

Hi Jim

One thing to check in planning the event, the community paving schedule, don't laugh I've encountered this problem of friesh asphalt and military vehicle.

When I was a kid living in Washington, DC the city repaved South Capital Street just before Arm Forices Day, you guess it the Army drove a colum of M60 Tanks down the street the pavement came of the road in ribbons behide the tracks. As a kid it was great fun to watch, after the colum had passed the road was a wreck. Next day I got to watch the Corps of Engineer show up strip the road of all the new asphalt and repave the road.

The other time the paving of highways has gotten into a military vehicle event is that the timing for repaving the highways around our Weare Rally always seem to coencied and if you drive a 3-ton CMP and particularly if you make sharp turns leaves imprints of the tread. No body has ever complained.

Cheers Phil

Kiwi experience for info...
 

Here in New Zealand, we are allowed to run our vehicles on public roads.
Our roads are either administered by the national roading authority, or by the local district councils. (I worked for one of the latter in Roading)

The only restrictions I have ever heard of was a limitation of 27 degrees celcius! The other one was about covering railway tracks when crossing so as not to affect the signal system!

Our experience is similar to those above. On chip sealed or Hotmix / Tarmacadam / Asphaltic Concrete surfaces, the carrier tracks scuff the oxidised surface off the exposed stone, leaving light grey track marks down the road, which soon disappear once rubber tyred traffic drives over them.

I have found it is rare for the tracks to dislodge sealing chip, as it should be embedded 2/3 of its height in bitumen binder. Multi axle truck and trailer units have a worse effect on roads when turning through tight radii such as roundabouts.

I have found the bigger issue is loss of traction on tight turns on smooth surfaces like hotmix or concrete, particularly with less experienced drivers.

Others have mentioned having an observer in every carrier, and a tail end charlie behind to ensure following drivers don't get mesmerised by the sight of the tracks turning and run up the rear! (Most of us don't have indicators or brake light fitted so rely on hand signals).

Rob

...and an en-route recovery plan - who would tow whom, tow ropes and cables ready? practice hook-ups..

I'd just like to state (because he didn't) that Rob was employed as a roading engineer. :salute: