MLU FORUM - Under New Management

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- - Under New Management (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4182)

But, then there is always a Delage, like a French mistress, fun to drive but very tempermental.
Bill

Hi Bill
welcome back, your ford is a civilian version of the 7V most likely a requisitioned vehicle captured at Dunkirk

Thank you Les. It is indeed nice to be back but I fear I am running on adreneline and going too fast.
Anyway, here is a Pontiac, surely a rare beast in Europe.

And, a car park. One can ID a Studebaker and perhaps three Chevrolets here. I believe this is from Belgium

OK, I will slow down for now.
For the Anglophiles, a Morris or two.

Another Morris.
Bill

Bill I am not sure your first "Morris" is a Morris, but rather a german Horch 901.
What gives it away is the two fuel filler necks, one in the middel of the side, and the second on the rear corner. I do not think they made new gastanks on the umbauwagens but used them as they was.

Rolf

My apologies Rolf, and you are correct.
No excuse, but I took the sellers caption as valid.
When I enlarged the photo, I can see I was fooled by the extra kit on the front fender/mudguard of the Horch.
Bill

A cuople more for under new management a volswagon and Opel bus, i found these long ago on one of the US veterans webs and as usual took no details and now i cant find it to acknowledge but its there anyway

Volswagon now thats new, heres the Opel

Captured British 15-cwt, pictured by a German soldier in France in 1940 (source: ebay Item number: 6273092765).

Cheers,
Hanno

Ex-French Army GMC ACK-353 1-1/2-ton 4x4 cargo truck, in use with the German Army. Snapped in The Hague, Netherlands, sometime during WW2.

Source: http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl
Bijschrift (NL) Straatgezicht met een Duitse legerauto en een fietser in Den Haag (1940-'45)
Collectiecode HUI
Fotograaf Huizinga, Menno
Inventarisnummer 1846
Opnamedatum op/vanaf 1940-05-10
Opnamedatum t/m 1945-05-04
Stad/Dorp Den Haag

Ottawa Invaded!!! Here's another German vehicle in Canadian hands. The photo is dated 1945. The present whereabouts is unknown
http://www.servicepub.com/images/semi.jpg

Schwimmwagen in Canadian service. Note the formation sign on the front and the perfectly aligned "US" star. No desire here to piss off American soldiers by 'dissin' them. ;)

http://www.servicepub.com/images/schwimmwagen.jpg

Farley Mowat's War Booty

Quote:

Originally posted by servicepub
Ottawa Invaded!!! Here's another German vehicle in Canadian hands. The photo is dated 1945. The present whereabouts is unknown

I'm pretty sure this is Farley's German halftrack that he describes in his book as the one brought home using all his fake official stamps on made -up paperwork ,authorizing passage home as official war relics destined for the war musuem,which,in the end,he pulled off (his favorite remark was " Bullshit baffles brains").At one point in his convoy story of repatriating his collection,this half track was used to pull the trailer carrying the V1 rocket that he stole from the US Army off a railway flatcar(one forty ouncer did the trick to the befriended guard at the siding.) :salute:

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Ex-French Army GMC ACK-353 1-1/2-ton 4x4 cargo truck, in use with the German Army.

And another one, this time in use with the Luftwaffe (WL 28943..). Source: Foto Technik Lkw Kfz Beute Franz Kennung Frankreich. Ebay item number: 250001116292

Some info on French GMCs

In January 1939, G.M. (France) started C.K.D. production of cars at Gennevilliers with a maximum daily capacity of four cars, either Buick, Chevrolet or Pontiac, six C.K.D. Chevrolet trucks with cabs, 6 M.K.D. [‘Mostly Knocked Down’] or semi-assembly cars from either G.M. Continental, Antwerp, or Adam Opel A.G., and six S.U.P. [‘Single Unit Packs, or fully-assembled] units. As a consequence, G.M. (France) was taken out of the supervision of G.M. Continental, and reported directly to G.M. Overseas Operations in New York. Further, that same month, the Le Havre truck plant closed as well as the Puteaux facility, in favour of Gennevilliers. The AC Titan plant [AC Titan, Section Equipment, G.M. (France} moved from Clichy or Levallois-Perret to 151 Avenue du President Wilson, Puteaux when G.M. France vacated. AC Titan moved back to Gennevilliers post-war, and became a counterpart of the British components operations albeit under one factory roof. The operation employed 280 people of whom 160 were office workers. However of significant interest is that in 1933 G.M. (France) was assigned to report to G.M. Continental for ‘economic reasons’, by the start of operations at Puteaux it was ‘a distinct operation, reporting to New York’.

By the time that war broke out G.M. France had 175 employees with 110 more in A.C. Titan’s Clichy Plant and 85 in the French Frigidaire operation. Soon after war was declared the French military authorities requisitioned the Gennevilliers Plant and released many of the former workforce who had been called-up into the Army so that the assembly of urgently required trucks could be resumed. This was because the French Army Staff in Paris and the French Purchasing Commission in New York had placed an order for 2,000 GMC trucks whilst Frigidaire were asked to supply naval units and food lockers for the Maginot Line. Gennevilliers assembled immediately pre-war a whole range of G.M. cars and trucks. They also handled C.K.D. or S.U.P. 1939 and 1940 Model Chevrolet and GMC civilian style trucks shipped from the U.S., some with conversions to 4 x 4 and 6 x 4 drive that were used by the Armed Forces [E.g. Thornton].

A.C. Titan supplied the Armed Forces with sparking plugs, fuel pumps and other accessories. The official history states that ‘The GMC trucks on order managed to get through to France early in 1940, which is believed to be correct, and 450 workmen were employed on a 12-hour shift, seven days a week assembling 60 trucks per day still on 11 June 1940, three days before the Germans entered Paris .

Supplementary orders for 7,000 Chevrolet and GMC trucks and 48 portable Diesel generators were placed but allegedly never reached France and negotiations for engines to power French tanks were cut short by the German drive for the Channel ports. The trucks and much of the Diesel material were later ‘transferred to the British Army’. Although diversions of deliveries were undertaken to the U.K., some crated vehicles landed at the port of La Rochelle, the intention being to assemble them for Free French forces, but the Germans seized the port on 22 June and the crates were eventually delivered to Antwerp to be used in the invasion of the Soviet Union.

From the Allies, to the Axis, and back.

Here is a Jeep that made its way into Kriegsmarine service and which was, at war's end, reclaimed from a vehicle dump.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/german jeep.jpg

When this "Willys Flitzer" was pictured in North Africa, it went from the Allies, to the Axis, and (not yet) back.

Reportedly, this photo shows a German motorised column. But apart from the Volkswagen Kübelwagen and the motorcycle-sidecar combo, almost all other vehicles are of Allied origin!

1-2 Question:

Clive: do you happen to have or have a link to or whatever more vehicle dump photos from European Theatre such as the one posted today? These mid 1945-mid 1946 dump photos are an amazing and valuable source of evidence of beute vehicles.
Usually, you cannot really pick out a bit of a photo of a particular vehicle and repost it but I am mainly interested in documenting however I can that such vehicles were captured/impressed etc.

Hanno: Would I be correct in thinking your photo is taken in North Africa??

Thanks
Bill

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Murray

Clive: do you happen to have or have a link to or whatever more vehicle dump photos from European Theatre such as the one posted today?

I found this while trolling through Archives. I can't remember if this was part of a series as I was looking for something else altogether - but then the jeep caught my eye.
I'll swing by Archives this week and pull the negatives, just in case there are more.
Clive

Thanks Clive:
Not to beat this to death, but as already stated, beute vehicles are a big part of my interests and archive.
In the photo you posted is, in the left rear, a Pontiac I have never seen before, next to it seems to be a 1935/6 Chevrolet Coach and the white truck looks to be an ex Belgian Chev or Ford.

To find these old dump photos of such a diverse bunch of cars and trucks that somehow survived that horribly destructive war really makes my day every time I run across one.

Someday I hope to write a little story here about what I have learned about beute vehicles and how they seem to have been allocated or chosen by the different branches of the German Armed Forces. There is a definite pattern and it is sort of interesting.

A part of that story would also deal with how the Germans handled requisitioned cars taken in Germany versus the confiscated cars taken in the captured countries.

Any additional photos would be very much appreciated.
Bill

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Hanno: Would I be correct in thinking your photo is taken in North Africa??

Bill, your guess is as good (or better) than mine. I have no further info on the photo.

H.

I think probably so, Hanno.
The VW Kubel has the sand tyres typical of the DAK equipment.
We know the Germans captured Jeeps and other such in the initial stages of the North African campaign as well. I seem to see a Bedford or three on the right and we have all seen these in photos of the time in German hands.
Bill

Motorcycle Dump. Location unknown.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/fil2552.jpg

Norton WD16H in Luftwaffe Service.

Images of captured British motorcycles in use by the Germans are not that uncommon but I think that this is the only one I have seen with a Wehrmacht serial number.

The chap who sent it to me thought that I had sent it to him but I had never seen it before. Does anybody know which publication it comes from ?

http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/6...nforceslu4.jpg

The bike is an early 16H but fitted with a German silencer that looks as if it belongs on a 2-stroke as well as German rear lighting and panniers.

The tool box has been removed. Perhaps they didn't manage to capture the key ?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Someday I hope to write a little story here about what I have learned about beute vehicles and how they seem to have been allocated or chosen by the different branches of the German Armed Forces. There is a definite pattern and it is sort of interesting.

Bill, in that case read what Paul Hocking has to say about this subject in the thread CMP Umbau-Wagen - freely quoted from his e-mails:

Quote:

One can basically split German ownership of captured vehicles into two categories. The category I and II titles that I use to describe the two main levels of German activity with captured vehicles are of my own invention. The Germans of course used their own words:
- Beute-Fahrzeuge, "booty" or "loot" vehicle, pretty much my Category I: where the vehicles have been literally picked up of the battlefield, maybe some crosses applied, are immediately reused and very likely discarded again within a short time;
- also Cat II and Umbau-Wagen, "rebuilt" vehicle, my Category II: where captured vehicles are properly incorporated into the German forces, this usually includes a full overhaul and repaint to German colours, the Notek light system added, WH, WL, WM or SS registration added with either the body left as it was, partly modified or fully modified from the scuttle rearwards. Most likely German service and parts books were issued for these vehicles. Category II work needs sufficient quantities to make it worthwhile and plenty of time to accomplish.
The only photos of Category II vehicles that I have are all in the Windscreen Magazine Issue 90, page 56, which shows Canadian C15 GS trucks, some have small body mods and some have major conversions.

Category I was very common especially in North Africa where due to the back and fore nature of the fighting many vehicles changed hands, but I have no known instances so far of Category II occurring in Africa.
The only other instance where quantities were captured is at the end of the 1941 Balkan campaign, Category II work was definitely applied to groups of identical vehicles. I have no idea of quantities of Canadian origin vehicles captured at the end of the Balkan fighting. Obviously it cannot be that many as were they newly issued vehicles about that time.
I am not aware of any other instances where the Germans managed to capture quantities of Canadian vehicles for either Category I or II applications. After all The opportunities were simply not there, you need to be advancing in most instances in order to acquire vehicles, retreating armies naturally capture very little of their opponents equipment.

Since the Windscreen article I not have acquired any more photos showing Category II Canadian vehicles, but Richard Notton has some new Category I vehicles photos, North Africa I believe.

No doubt you have the other photo of re-captured Canadian trucks in North Africa, that is in Windscreen Issue 92, page 61, all appear to be Category I vehicles, although I believe I can see a front Notek lamp on the fourth vehicle from the front. However Notek lamp sets were commonly available for retrospective fitting to any vehicle, therefore this by itself is not an indicator of a Category II vehicle.

Regarding North Africa, the deliberate sending of Cat II softskin vehicles to this area is very unlikely, as far as I can tell captured vehicles were simply issued to any unit as required, and Cat II, being now considered to be "proper" German vehicles, would have been issued via their normal German distribution depot system etc., and if their unit happened to be going to NA then the captured vehicles went there also, however as 95% of the German Army went into Russia in 1941/2, that is where most if not all these vehicles went. This is very much supported by photographic evidence from Russia.

Likewise when the Germans left Tunisia in 1943 it is very unlikely that they managed to ship over to mainland Europe any captured softskin vehicles, after all, they brought back virtually no hardware at all, mostly it was key personnel only, and airlifted back to Europe.

Hi folks,

Surprisingly most of the pictures of captured vehicles show the vehicles finally used by Germans. Here is Steyr 1500A used by 2nd Inf. Div. in April - May 1945 during liberation of west Czechoslovakia, namely town of Domazlice. It looks like Steyrs were repainted OD before painting of the white stars.
Greetings to all who prefer White Stars rather than Balkenkreutz,

Jan Mostek.

Because I am not sure if I could post two pictures at once, here is another one of (tha same?) Steyr 1500A in the hands of Indian Heads.
Cheers,
Jan.