Camo paint
 

Hello

After an extensive search i have found the proper CDN Camo paint.

From the Canadian Govt Specifications Board ,manual 1-GP-12 and using the DND Camo pattern the proper colours are

Olive Green 503-321 (Olive Drab) NSN8010-21-870-7533
Green 503-319 (pea/light green) NSN8010-21-576-2558 (This is not to be confused with the earlier 503-319 from 1957,which was much darker)
Black 512-301 NSN8010-21-576-1987

I tried searching for the equivalent in the currently used Federal Standards (US) which replaced the CDN Specifications in 1991.
There are no crossover references and the CDN Govt was unable to provide any help.

I also contacted all of the paint manufactureres who are named on my original cans, no help there except for PPG who wishes to see my paint samples to look up their current stock by scanning. (Don't think it will be there though, but will try).

Camo paints from the US are cheaper and are close, but i have noticed that there is indeed a difference.

Fortunetly i had an original can of Olive Drab 503-321, and a can of green 512-319, (which i had made by mistake over 15 years ago and did not know what it was), i painted samples and had scanned.

If you go the automotive paint route you will be paying big dollars and will have to add a flattener. This will also be in acrylic paint as Oil based automotive paints in Canada are being phased out.

If you go by direct application industrial paint, which is oil, it comes already flat and is aprox $85.00 a gallon.

Clive Law of Service Publications will be the first to have his M38A1 CDN painted with the new paint by fellow collector Don Dingwall.

The paint samples seem to have a nice contrast with each other and the colours work nicer together than the faded original samples. As on my M151 A2 or my M38A1. (Which explains why we chose that colour to begin with.)
The faded look just does not give it justice.

Based on the outcome we will post the data and hopefully a photo of the finished product so that everybody will have access to these unique CDN colours.

Stay tuned... I know there are already two others locally waiting in line for these paints including myself.

I also have the info on the two shades of CDN gloss green available.
I will check if these are also available in the direct application paints. One is greener and the other one darker than the US shades currently available.

503-121 Olive Green NSN8010-21-898-1723
This is the gloss version of the 503-321 in the camo.

Will have to compare the other sample to my Specs book for the proper number when i get it back.

Thanks

Eric Ottawa

Way to go Eric. It would be nice if the codes were available to be made up in any location.

A couple days back I was in a Kingston Ontario surplus store and thought I had hit paydirt when I saw a can and a case of two cans of Cdn olive drab sitting on the floor for sale. On closer inspection I realized the cans were the non skid paint which would be applied to the top of fenders or onto the tailgates of the trucks. We used to filter the pebbles out of this paint back when it was hard to find the olive drab. I would have bought them, but unfortunately I was flying home, and didn't have any way of getting them home.

Camo Paint
 

When we receive the paint i'll make sure we share any details on it.

I'll get the brand of the paint and see if there is a national colour code on it.

I know there is a local paint code and the store is Metro paints, but that does not help those outside Ottawa.

Eric

Does anyone know what the shelf life is like on the Issue OD Paint?

Reason I ask, i've seen many Gallon Cans of it kicking around at work, but wondered if its past its usable life.

Scotty

2 to 3 years is optimum, but if you stir it long enough, even 10 year old paint will be fine.
One thing to watch out for is if the paint is frozen, it will shine too much.

Thanks Rob,

I guess the challenge now is to find a couple of cans that havn't been opened at some point and then tossed in a paint locker for a half dozen years.

Do you have a kitchen blender?
 

I must admit to having reactivated some very old military paint by adding the proper thinner/reducer and mixing like hell. Yup I've even used a blender. While I have never painted a vehicle with it I have done touch up and new parts with pretty good results. The blender works really good on turning that lump of flattening compound into use-able compound again.

Obviously what you are looking to do is restore the proper viscosity and to strain out any lumps.

Cheers

Are you looking at cans of the old IRR paint? The last NSNs for the stuff was in the range of 8010-21-880-9629, 9630 and 9650. If your NSN on the can is different, watch if you are using the newer CARC paint as it has some very serious health implications when sprayed. If brushed on it is OK, but will be quite shiny. Also, the CARC paints are not matches to the Cdn colour scheme.

There was an interim Cdn Carc in the 8010-21-980 range if I recall, but it did not see widespread issue, and the eventual CARC paint should have an American NSN, which is in the 8010-01- NSN range. All these numbers are from memory mind you, so take them with a grain of salt.

The only paint I remember seeing in the Paint Lockers at work was definately the IRR paint. Specifically "Forest Green" and "Black". This would probably make it very old by now. Finding some would be pretty easy, finding some that is unopened will be the real challenge.

I don't ever recall seeing any CARC kicking around at work. Seems to me that was all held by 2nd Line and so forth. As our stuff came in refurbed in CARC, we no longer touched it up, although it liked to peel off in big chips.

Who says the memory is the first thing to go eh Rob :D

There were plenty of messages regarding limiting who could work with the CARC. Minor touchups were allowed by first line users, but complete paint jobs were a second line function, unless you happened to have a first line unit with a full paint booth and full air supplied body suits.

The two colors you list are the easy ones to find. It is the olive drab which is the toughest to find for some reason. If you had to, head to that Kingston surplus store I mentioned and buy a gallon of their non-skid stuff. Filter out the pebbles and spray away. At least you will have the correct shade of olive. If I had a way of getting it back to here, I would have bought the 3 cans I saw.

I would be very interested in the color codes as well having to do a few projects my self, keep us posted.

You know how it is, someone probably mentioned CARC and Danger in the same paragraph and the usual chain of command paranoia set in.

I may check out that Surplus Store. What was the name of it, and how much was he asking for it?

On another note, after a little cleaning of fuel lines etc, I flashed up Mike McKinleys MUTT a few minutes ago. Runs like a damn charm. Very smooth idle all things considered. Kinda wish I had plates for it, as I would have taken it around the block.

I don't remember the name of the surplus store, but it was on the main road through town, princess ave if I recall. The person operating the store mentioned there was a brothel operating upstairs, and to explain to the cab driver which part of the building the 3 of us were in.
I didn't notice the price (of the paint of course) either.

Sounds like it should be easy to find :)

I'll have to check them out.

Thought i'd post up some pics and give an update of where i'm at now.

Basically, Mikes MUTT will be donating its complete Power Pack, ROPS and a bunch of other essentials to the Red Deer Tub Donor Jeep. I've left it completely intact for now and gave it a some fresh Spark Plugs and Wires, a complete Carb Re-Re, Fuel System Cleaning, Valve Adjustment and run the Engine daily for at least 15 minutes to keep everything lubed and the charging system topped up. My hopes are that if something is going to spring a leak, better to happen now than after I transfer it over to the Red Deer MUTT. One the Tub is all fixed up, i'll "Pull the Pack" and get it all cleaned up and ready for the transfer.

I started pulling the Red Deer Tub Donor MUTT apart scouring it for Data, Serial Numbers and anything else I could find on it. I'm still impressed with the lack of a rust problem except for a portion above the Pintle Hook and predictably the Battery Box Floor. Otherwise everything else is completely solid. My original plan was to install an AM General Underbody Corrosion Repair Kit, but it turns out that it would be un-neccessary.

Biggest problem with it was the "Booty-Fab" manner that it was Re-Militarized and the abuse it took while in service. Although it doesn't have any serious body damage, there isn't a panel on it that doesn't have some kind of a dent. Lots of panel beating with Wood Blocks and a Dolly. The Re-Weld job will have to be completely removed and Re-re-welded with some proper fishplating materials and techniques. I've ordered a new Battery Box Floor, Passenger Seat Bulkhead and Tunnel Cover rather than mess around.

Pics to follow....

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2121.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data.../IMG_21241.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2128.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2132.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data.../IMG_21411.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2155.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2187.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2189.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2192.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2182.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2181.JPG

The only markings that could be found on the entire Tub aside from the usual painted over Stickers were these Tac Signs:

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2151.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2152.JPG

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...m/IMG_2153.JPG

So, correct me if i'm wrong, but it appears to be the former hauler for the DCO of 1 Service Battalion if I read it correctly. It did have dual Trays for what i'm assuming were 524's at some point judging by the holes.

One thing is for sure, it must have been the Battalion Beater at some point judging by the dents and dings.

I am sure you will likely find it during teardown, but check those rear suspension arm hangers for hole elongation where the suspension arm mounts to them. They were nototious for elongating resulting in very sloppy handling. Thre was a CFTO detaling how to repair and strengthen them.

Noted Rob,

I haven't got to that point yet, but I just pulled the wheels the other day to find that the Wheel Bearing preload was so loose there was a good 1" of play when I shook the Tire/Wheel assembly. So, having seen this, i'm going to pull the entire Suspensions Front and Rear to check for any other abnormalities.

So tell me, did I waste my money when I bought some Top Bows for this thing? I haven't seen Top Bows on very many Canadian A2s. But the ROPS does a very poor job of keeping the Top taut, as well as not having a way to secure the Side Curtains properly. I'm hoping they'll fit when they get here.

I got the Ownership and Registration sorted out finally. If anyone is interested in what I did to circumvent and eliminate the Ass Pain of trying to get one of these never registered Scrap Rigs on the road, PM me, as I don't want to be publicly scolded :D

Other little discoveries, the "Krylon Camo OD" is damn near a dead ringer for the OD Cam spots that I could find on both of these MUTTs. I sprayed a test spot on the mule I have sitting outdoors, and after a few days of weather, it cures very very close. Too close to really notice any difference. Too bad the Forest Green base color isn't as easy to obtain.

The replacement Panels from both Jeeppanels Plus and MacMilitaria are both very good quality pieces. I ended up getting a new Battery Box Floor and a Tunnel Cover rather than try and cobble the crap that was left from the Demil. I'll post some pics when they are all tacked in.

Scotty

The top bows were disposed of with the intro of the roll cages.

Niner Alpha is part of the COs stable. I forget which is which, but it might be his rover. The DCO has another callsign altogether (As I Recall). Dual RT524s would make sense for either passenger.

Don't mistake dings and dents for in service abuse. The numbers could have been on there for a while. Normally, the HQ vehicles are kept in pretty good condition. Their drivers are reliable soldiers, and keeping a vehicle running for the CO is just a bit more important than cutting up potatoes or standing sentry unnecessarily. That is what happens when vehicles go off the road for no good reason.

Body work on the SMP vehicles was rarely done, unless it was directly attributable to an accident. So if you figure one dent a year in the bush (and the dents would accumualte faster than that) along with the dents gained when the body was cut in half, then you are well over 20 dents.

As to the loose wheel bearings, the M151A2 was notorious for them backing off. Set them exactly as per the manual with the preload....anything less and they work loose.

You guys will have to excuse my crappy spelling for the next few months...I write these on a cheap laptop from a dusty and dark weatherhaven tent overseas, and with the unreliable internet service, I often don't risk re-reading before posting for fear it will vanish altogether.

There isn't much at my old unit that wasn't bashed around a bit. Hoods are always sunk in from walking on them etc. None of the marks on this thing are atypical.

I wasn't entirely sure about the C/S. But hey, I ended up getting the CO of 1 SVC BNs old Jeep. That in itself is nostalgic none the less.

Well Rob, I hope you haven't been off running to the bunkers too many times. From what i've heard, the Haji's aim with the 107s and 122s hasn't improved since my last trip over there.

Scotty

scotty, as i sit here listening to the latest AC/DC album, it warms my heart to see that my old jeep is finally getting the proper attention. i consider the "donor body" nothing more than a facelift in human terms. i would humbly ask/beg, that if anyone has information related to the cdn m151's such as cfto's, or what ever else, i'm certainly interested in it. i have been working on a book about the cdn m151's for some time, which i'm hoping may someday ammount to a weapons of war book from service pub. i have found that with these vehicles, there seems to be a big black hole out there in that very few people have much info on them as compared to other vehicles. full credit will be given to anyone contributing. mike

We get a couple a week. It was nice to see some flares go up the other night and some return fire happening.

Don't those guys know they could hurt someone blindly firing into lived in areas??

I could say more, but I don't want to turn into an internet FOO for these jackasses.

I addition to that Mike, I really got to thinking last night... We need to get a Canadian MUTT Registry going. I'd love to see just how many are out there being collected, and get that information compiled somewhere.

On another positive note, the project yard stick moved ahead some more today. My MUTT is now Legally mine and Insured. I walked away from the DMV today with my spanky new Registration Green Slip (Unfit until I get it Safety Inspected), and to add icing to the cake, my Insurance Company didn't even skip a beat giving me a policy for my "1979, American Motors Corporation, Jeep, 2 Dr, Open Top" ;) Don't ask.. But at least its in the system now :)

After it gets a full restoration, i'll look into an Appraisal, more specific Insurance Coverage and some Veteran Plates for it.

This afternoon I was able to get a good portion of the Uniframe repaired. I'm starting to see the finish line in the welding now. No pics, forgot the camera again.

Rob, ya, point taken on the US/UK Open Fire Policy. My first Blackhawk ride I was kinda surprised at the manner that they test fired their Door Guns :)

copy that regards registry...i have a few names to add if interested. also, if you check out ebay.com military vehicles, you will notice a surplus dealer, located in st. andrews, ont, who is auctioning off an uncut m151a2 body and many parts of same. current price of the body is 2500.00cad....

I'll look around for a good medium to start gathing some info. I'm thinking some kind of "Fill in the Blanks" webpage might be the best bet. The caveat being that they were to have been Canadian originals.

I'm familiar with the Ebay seller. I visited him a while back in July when I was looking for a Body Donor. Unfortunately he wasn't selling individual Tubs back then, only the entire lot of MUTT stuff, which was way out of my price range and storage capability. On a side note, i've seen and touched all of his MUTT Tubs, and with the exception of one very nice one, it was actually significantly easier to repair my demilled Alberta MUTT than it would have been to repair the rust and damage from careless handling on his "Uncut" Tubs. Kind of brings up the age old question of Cut vs Uncut.... :D

paint for mutt
 

Hi- having restored 3or 4 ex army vehicles in my time in my opinion it is not necessary to sandblast -I would prefer a good wire brushing -what is left will probably be as good as anything you will put over it -also these were not Cadillacs so a prefect finish is probably out of place -I would suggest you use a two part primer and put the finish coat on within a couple of days or you should sand the primer - for the floor inside I used the truck box liner stuff with the paint so it is not noticeable but it stands up -I made a rotissery for my mutt which hooks to my hoist so I was able to roll it anound by myself -saved a lot of trouble -for a finish underneath I used Can Tire black tarry spray cans -I store the mutt in a shed so I hope it will tast forever-we are blessed here with back roads to drive these things -a necessity for full enjoyment - Greg

Hi Greg,

I have to agree, after a long thought about it, i've decieded against Sand Blasting this thing, and rather just lightly rough it up and paint it again. The only rust issues are easy to fix, and won't require drastic measures. Its never going to be a show winner resto, so taking it down to the bare metal would just accentuate its battle scars even more.

I managed to get mine up on 4 x 10 Ton Jack Stands so I can almost crouch under it now. Not too bad for working on it underneath, but still not as good as the old MUTT Kabob.

For the Tub Floors i'm thinking about brushing them down and doing the whole POR-15 process on it. I've seen others that have done it in the past on Jeep Frames etc, and it seems pretty sturdy and long lasting. Not sure about the underside yet. It still has most of the Ziebart Coating left on it, and although its protected it well, it looks like complete crap. Alot of dirt and grime is stuck to it. I'm going to try and at least get it cleaned up and degreased as best I can and re-assess.

What are the opinions on using JB Weld for very minor cosmetic touch ups? The sides where the Demil has been repaired might need a little bit of finessing and i'm not a fan a fan of Bondo.