MLU FORUM - Ede, Holland 1945

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- The Armour Forum (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7)

- - Ede, Holland 1945 (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27440)

Jon McGrath

20-12-20 18:13

I continue to be amazed by the detective skills of MLU members. In finding the story behind what otherwise might be simply a post-war photo of a damaged vehicle, you honour those who served. Thank you for your interest in my dad's photos. Jon

David Dunlop

20-12-20 23:41

Hi Jakko.

I think it is two different Crabs, but very likely the same Regiment.

In the first photo, side view, the photographer is standing in a roadway leading up to where the Crab is sitting. Look at the chain link fence just above the drooping gun barrel. You can see the top of the fence stop at the point where a slightly lower gate is located. This Crab was moving along a road parallel to the fence when it hit a mine. You can see daylight and ripped metal under the front portion of the hull where the first suspension assembly used to be and the top of the 2nd suspension is almost flush with the ground following the blast. The upper front slope of the hull also seems to lack the expected lines of a normal hull. The armour plate is flowing all over the place to my eyes.

In the second rear view photo, there is no trace of a chain link fence to the right of the Crab. Also, a large tree is growing just to the left of the spare chain rack. In the first photo, that portion of the tank is in full view at the intersection of the two roads.

My thoughts are the first Crab was a fatal event for the crew. The second crew were probably a lot luckier.

David

Jakko Westerbeke

21-12-20 11:02

In the second photo, the turret seems to be at a very odd angle, and the upper run of the track clearly slopes downward relative to the sponson bottom, which would be consistent with a missing suspension bogie. There also appears to be a road wheel lying just in front of and to the left of the tank.

I think what’s happened here is that the tank was blown up and then its tracks were removed by towing or pushing the tank forward off of them, which explains why it seems to be in a different location. In the photo from behind it’s right next to a tree, which isn’t in the side-on photo, but I would expect it to be just to the right out of shot there.

Hanno Spoelstra

21-12-20 11:07

"W" on the hull?

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wout Jansen (Post 274789)

After editing the photo, it produces this result. To the right of the hull is a W?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 274824)

Wout, I only see the census number, a spare track link rack and a very faint star. Do you seen the "W" more towards the rear of the hull.....possibly part of the tanks nickname???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wout Jansen (Post 274835)

If you put my edited photo on the hard drive, and you enlarge the image on your screen, I think you can clearly see a "W" on the hull. The number is also easier to read.

Wout, thanks for editing the photo.

But I cannot see anything legible in the area I outlined in red.

Attachment 118381

Hanno Spoelstra

21-12-20 11:27

"Bill Wyatts tank"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 274826)

Attached is a picture from WW2talk, courtesy of James Nightingale jnr.

"Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem"

source: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...y.13221/page-2

Judging from the bracket on the turret side this looks a lot like the same Crab as in Jon's picture. It's 1st Lothian and Border Yeomanry.

Alex, what can I say but :note:

I only have a 1944 1LBY War Diary so will continue the search for info on operations in the Arnhem area in 1945.

Hanno Spoelstra

21-12-20 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Dunlop (Post 274849)

I think it is two different Crabs, but very likely the same Regiment.

In the first photo, side view, the photographer is standing in a roadway leading up to where the Crab is sitting. Look at the chain link fence just above the drooping gun barrel. You can see the top of the fence stop at the point where a slightly lower gate is located. This Crab was moving along a road parallel to the fence when it hit a mine. You can see daylight and ripped metal under the front portion of the hull where the first suspension assembly used to be and the top of the 2nd suspension is almost flush with the ground following the blast. The upper front slope of the hull also seems to lack the expected lines of a normal hull. The armour plate is flowing all over the place to my eyes.

In the second rear view photo, there is no trace of a chain link fence to the right of the Crab. Also, a large tree is growing just to the left of the spare chain rack. In the first photo, that portion of the tank is in full view at the intersection of the two roads.

My thoughts are the first Crab was a fatal event for the crew. The second crew were probably a lot luckier.

David,

Don't take the location/ surroundings into account. This Crab was dragged from where it was knocked out to the short-lived museum at Ede.

Wout Jansen

21-12-20 13:47

Tank Ede.

Hanno,

sorry for the misunderstanding, but I see a letter W to the right of the turret (I think). A hull is different from a turret !!!! My mistake. I can't discover anything else.

Greetings, Wout

Hanno Spoelstra

21-12-20 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wout Jansen (Post 274865)

sorry for the misunderstanding, but I see a letter W to the right of the turret (I think). A hull is different from a turret !!!! My mistake. I can't discover anything else.

Point it out with an arrow, please
I may be “kippig” (chicken eye sight) 😉

David Dunlop

21-12-20 16:18

Hanno.

I think I see the “W” now on the side of the turret bustle that Wout is referencing.

David

David Herbert

21-12-20 17:51

Yes, I see it now that I am looking in the right place ! It does look to me though that it is rather crudely painted so possibly after the tank was knocked out ?

David

Hanno Spoelstra

21-12-20 18:40

1 Attachment(s)

Now I see it! Like I said, chicken eyesight... Well spotted, Wout!

I don’t know what it means, but it is not part of the regular markings

Attachment 118389

Alex van de Wetering

21-12-20 22:44

Quote:

I don’t know what it means, but it is not part of the regular markings

Aha.....well spotted. No nickname for sure...the "W" is a marking done by an REME/RCEME crew that denotes if a vehicle could be repaired or not. I seem to remember "W" was not to be repaired but used for parts/spares....."Write-off"

Alex

Alex van de Wetering

21-12-20 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 274862)

Alex, what can I say but :note:

A quick check of the 1LBY War Diary did not yield any reference to these operations in the Arnhem area - will continue the search.

There are, I think, about 5 pics of Crabs in Velp in the archive, but no idea if they were there for a flailing operation or not.

Alex

Alex van de Wetering

21-12-20 23:14

Canadian Army Newsreel, No. 69 (1945) Shows the RCEME in action and marking a Sherman V as a write-off.

https://youtu.be/suWnMBJBLFU?t=207

Hanno Spoelstra

22-12-20 11:22

More pictures

4 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 274826)

A cross posting to WW2Talk yielded more pictures of the Sherman Crab and the Panther tank!

It seems these were taken at a later date. The Sherman's turret seems to have been righted by then. Note the soldier sticking his head up from the RH sponson. The top plate seems to be peeled up and away by an internal explosion.

No further info on "Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem" as of yet.

Attachment 118404 Attachment 118405

Attachment 118406 Attachment 118407

Alex van de Wetering

22-12-20 12:17

Quote:

A cross posting to WW2Talk yielded more pictures of the Sherman Crab and the Panther tank!

Wow, awesome. A big thanks to James for sharing these pictures!

MicS	25-12-20 19:44

Ede Crab

4 Attachment(s)

On this tank, as often on burnt out / heavily weathered tanks, paint shades seem inverted, i.e. what were white outlines (of the turret number and tank name) have become darker than the body of the outlined digit/letter.

I read the first digit of the turret number as a 9, with the characteristic shape of 1 LOTHIANS turret numbers:
Attachment 118486

This means that the tank originally belonged to 4 Tp C Sqn, which initially comprised Crabs Nos. 90 to 94:

90? RED GAUNTLET
91? GREEN MANTIE
94 WANDERING WILLIE
92 ALAN FAIRFORD
93? COLIN CAMPBELL

The Ede Crab cannot be RED GAUNTLET, which was written off on 8 Aug 44, nor either ALAN FAIRFORD or COLIN CAMPBELL which had different stowage arrangements.

I also see a 'D' plus shades of letters compatible with No.94 WANDERING WILLIE:
Attachment 118487

Attachment 118489

Maybe the 1945 War Diary for C Sqn could provide details on the loss of WANDERING WILLIE?

Finally, the T-number cannot be T148187 which was a Sherman V of 22 Cdn Armd Regt:
Attachment 118488
I believe it is T148167, or possibly T148197.

Jon, could you scan this photo once more, at least the part with markings, in high resolution (600 or 1200 dpi), maybe tweaking the constrast to improve legibility of those markings?

Michel

David Herbert

25-12-20 22:41

Yes, I can easily believe T148167. However remember that all the Crabs were originally standard Sherman V gun tanks and retained the same 'T' number after conversion to Crabs so could appear in lists as either type depending on dates.

David

MicS	26-12-20 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Herbert (Post 275003)

Quite true. I forgot to specify that the 22 CAR list dates from the same period (April-May 44) as the 1 LOTHIANS list of vehicle names, corresponding to the initial tanks (those with a turret number). So No.9x, whatever its name, is unlikely to have been a former 22 CAR tank.

Jon McGrath

26-12-20 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicS (Post 274997)

Jon, could you scan this photo once more, at least the part with markings, in high resolution (600 or 1200 dpi), maybe tweaking the constrast to improve legibility of those markings?

Michel

Yes, I will do my best to get a better scan in the next 2~3 days. Jon

Hanno Spoelstra

26-12-20 18:16

Michel,

Good to get your input on this! Clearly it helps when you know what to look for to be able to ID additional clues. :thup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicS (Post 274997)

I read the first digit of the turret number as a 9, with the characteristic shape of 1 LOTHIANS turret numbers:

This means that the tank originally belonged to 4 Tp C Sqn, which initially comprised Crabs Nos. 90 to 94:
(...)
Finally, the T-number cannot be T148187 which was a Sherman V of 22 Cdn Armd Regt:
I believe it is T148167, or possibly T148197.

Hanno Spoelstra

26-12-20 18:20

Tolbooth on WW2Talk forum

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicS (Post 274997)

Maybe the 1945 War Diary for C Sqn could provide details on the loss of WANDERING WILLIE?

Have you seen the analysis by "Tolbooth" over on WW2Talk?

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...-8#post-912505:

Quote:

I think this may be the incident. The Lothians A Squadron WD has this entry for the 17th Apr

"[A] Sqn, with C Sqn 141 RAC, assisted SWB and Gloucesters, Bennekon - Renkum. The birds had flown. Sgt Leishman's tk blown up on a mine and burnt out - four cas to personnel."

And this comes from the after action report of Lt Byth, 1 Tp A Sqn

" Tue 17 Apr 45. The Tp was to operate as a sort of roving column, clearing up villages on the left of the main area of advance, together with three Crocodiles and nine carriers. This force was called GUY FORCE. Progress was painfully slow because of numerous road blocks and ruins, but the task was successfully completed without any enemy opposition.

We reunited with the main body at Oosterbeck and pushed on, now leading on the main axis. Still the only opposition was ruins and road blocks. Finally we encountered a minefield, which had to be flogged. Sgt Leishman's tk blew up on two R-mines, with cas to his crew: Tpr Wyatt severely burnt; Tpr Deryck wounded in foot (later died of wounds); LCpl Roberts burns on hand; Tpr Chisholm sprained knee."

There don't appear to have been any other casualties around that period.

And http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...-8#post-912508:

Quote:

However....!

There is another tank knocked out on the 19th April nearby in the village of Eldik which is also west of Arnhem. this was from 1 Trp B Sqn, which was my dad's unit.

"Col Richardson of 1 Calgary Regt came over and requested assistance on behalf of one of his tps and a coy of Belgians, who were going to make a small local attack from the village of Eldikschenhock MR525707 [Today seems to be called Eldik]. The job was simply this: That the Belgians were afraid of Schumines in an area which was known to have A Tk mines in it, and requested our assistance to clear a path so that the Calgary's tks could get forward to sp them.

Capt E C Harley, Lt T R Stewart and Col Richardson went forward and made a recce, and later Lt Stewart went out with three Crabs to do the job. One tk, Cpl Edwards', was unfortunately blown up on an R mine and the following cas were incurred: Tpr Cardle J, head injuries and burns (died of wounds later); Tpr Smith C D, bruises and slight shock; Tpr Dempster A, burns and cuts to left arm.

Lt Stewart and Capt E C Harley, who were there, decided that 1Tp could do nothing further and the remaining tks came back and rejoined the Sqn in harbour. The tk itself was a Z cas (for a full account of this see Lt Stewart's report ).

Later in the afternoon Maj J D Henderson, Capt E C Harley and Sgt Gregory P all had a look at the tk and decided it was too big a job for the ARV, and assistance would be required from the Calgary Regt to get the Crab off the road.

No Schumines had been blown and the Belgian sappers then cleared the remaining R mines by hand."

Lt Stewart's action report has this too;

"On 20 Apr 45 we towed the damaged tk clear of the road junction and removed all the kit from it, as it was impossible to bring it back owing to the difficulty of getting it up onto the high dyke road."

It does sound as though this particular tank was not recoverable and may be the one that ended up at Ede, although the one on the 16th is closer.

randall klein

26-12-20 21:15

Long time member but first time posting in a longer time. I have a photo of the memorial to the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade at Ede but I have no idea how to post. If someone could steer me in the right direction. Thank you

Hanno Spoelstra

26-12-20 21:35

Randall,

See http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...600#post190600 for posting pictures, give it a try. If it does not work, email me and I’ll post it here.

randall klein

26-12-20 22:19

1 Attachment(s)

Many thanks, Hanno.

Hopefully this works. Photo was taken during one of my many tours of Canadian Battlefields. It is the Memorial at Ede of the 1st Canadian Arrmoured Brigade.

Attachment 118524

Jon McGrath

26-12-20 22:29

3 Attachment(s)

As requested by MicS, I have scanned at 600dpi, the highest resolution on my scanner, and applied some filtering to attempt clearer photos of the census number, turret and, possibly, the name "DERIN". I see the census number as T148167 I can't see a name nor reliably see a number or numbers on the turret. Jon

Attachment 118525 Attachment 118527 Attachment 118528

Jakko Westerbeke

27-12-20 10:47

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon McGrath (Post 275049)

I can't see a name nor reliably see a number or numbers on the turret.

I think it says “24” on the turret:

Attachment 118543

(Their poor alignment above is probably due to me missing parts of the numbers.)

MicS	31-12-20 15:18

Definitely not No.94 WANDERING WILLIE as I suggested, which was T150569.

See New Sherman Crab?

It is clearly Sgt Leishman's Crab, destroyed on 17th April, and the same one as posted by Tolbooth on ww2talk and captioned as Bill Wyatt's tank:

Quote:

I think this may be the incident. The Lothians A Squadron WD has this entry for the 17th Apr

"[A] Sqn, with C Sqn 141 RAC, assisted SWB and Gloucesters, Bennekon - Renkum. The birds had flown. Sgt Leishman's tk blown up on a mine and burnt out - four cas to personnel."

And this comes from the after action report of Lt Byth, 1 Tp A Sqn

" Tue 17 Apr 45. The Tp was to operate as a sort of roving column, clearing up villages on the left of the main area of advance, together with three Crocodiles and nine carriers. This force was called GUY FORCE. Progress was painfully slow because of numerous road blocks and ruins, but the task was successfully completed without any enemy opposition.

We reunited with the main body at Oosterbeck and pushed on, now leading on the main axis. Still the only opposition was ruins and road blocks. Finally we encountered a minefield, which had to be flogged. Sgt Leishman's tk blew up on two R-mines, with cas to his crew: Tpr Wyatt severely burnt; Tpr Deryck wounded in foot (later died of wounds); LCpl Roberts burns on hand; Tpr Chisholm sprained knee."

As for its turret number, I tend to agree with Jakko that it might be 24, but am still at a loss regarding its name, which could then only be ROB ROY (or ROB ROY II or III) or RED DOUGLAS (more likely).

Hanno Spoelstra

01-01-21 22:27

Great input guys, one big step closer to IDíng this Sherman Crab :thup:

m kenny

02-01-21 00:56

Seems to have been a lot of Crab wrecks in Holland.

https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/en/r...8-003048976d84

https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/en/r...8-003048976d84

https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/en/r...8-003048976d84

https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/en/r...8-003048976d84

https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/en/r...8-003048976d84

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