Rob,

Thanks for pointing this out! Shows how easy it is to mistake a 3-colour for a 2-colour camouflage job.

Had a close look at the cam pattern for the Cdn 1/4 ton vehicles. From this I deduct left and right sides were supposed to have the same pattern, right?

Thanks,
Hanno

Related to Ralph Storey....
 

Last time I checked I was!

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...randfather.jpg

Left and right were indeed mirror images of each other.

here are a few pics of an ex cdn a2 that was on ebay a few years ago. the one with the trailer attached was for sale locally for way too much quid. it was fairly rust free and sported the paint job it left gagetown with.

I thought it might be the case. I've had a few quick chats with Mr Storey over the years. Hes' been very active with the Regt over the years. Sort of a Regt Grand Dad :)

I will admit, after alot of weathering the two Greens do seem to fade to the point where it is hard to distinguish the two.

Any input on the Crown Spray? I suppose I could have Ziebart Re-applied after the resto.

They started to do the Crown Spray on the military trucks just before I got out of the military. It did not seem to me to be much different than the spraying of used motor oil in Ontario decades back.

You can buy a oil spray gun from princess auto for around $20. Spray the under chassis of the mutt with 30 weight and you should be good. You can even pull some of those ziebart plugs in the frame channels and spray oil into there.

There was a patch of rust on my current M38A1 at the front right pillar and at the bottom edge of the right side from water in the tool box. I sprayed both these areas with motor oil and it stopped any further deterioration dead. I am just finishing up the restoration of an old 5/4 ton, and plan on spraying the underneath of the cargo box with 30 weight as well. I don't really have to do under the cab so much....being a chevy it has the auto oiler (350 V8 and the turbo 350 tranny) looking after that floor.


A wise body man once told me that anytime you go into a door to work on things like door handles or window mechanisms, you throw an oil soaked rag into the bottom of the door. Anytime you are back in their, you re-soak it. A little oil goes a long way, and is relatively cheap.

names for 'Jeeps'
 

My Militia unit (Sherbrooke Hussars) was issued two M151 Jeeps. We called from "Seventy-Four Pattern Jeeps", to differentiate from the "Sixty-Seven Pattern Jeeps" we had in abundance. Where the name Mutt came from is beyond me. Probably some ad copy writer's nickname that appeared on a pamphlet another writer kept and repeated. So in your case, you don't have an M151A2 or a Mutt. Your Jeep is a 74-Pattern.

Your CFR may be repeated with decals under the paint on the dash.

The 74-Pattern was a soft ride compared to the 67-Pattern and easier to get up on two wheels. We never rolled any of our while I was in, but there were more accidents with the 67-Patterns. We all thought the big roll cage was an abomination when we saw it for the first time. The front seat is adjustable which is a good thing. The hood flat for sitting a two-burner stove on or sleeping or giving orders, but not for copying map traces. Too many ridges in the sheet metal. The four-wheel independant suspension meant they were easier to bottom out cross country. The glove box and tool kit weren't very handy as I remember. There isn't a lip around the rear cargo area, so stuff could slide out more easily. Having the tarp and side curtains on was good thing to not lose stuff.

Thanks Rob for posting the cam' painting diagram and paint codes. They will come in handy for my 67-Pattern.

There were 3 names kicking around for the M151A2s out in this neck of the woods. 74 pattern jeep was one of them. The other two were "disposable jeep" (since many guys thought that the Americans just threw them away when they broke them) and also rollover jeep, for obvious reasons.

The term mutt was a US acronym for Military Truck, Utility Tactical.

My old alma matta (the FGH) had 3 of the M151A2s for the officers in HQ, and the fighting troops all used the M38A1 cdn2 and 3. While the M151s were better suited for highway use, the did not have great gearing for cross country work. The sheet metal on them was also not heavy enough to support the GPMG swing arm mount, although I did see one of these mounts on a M151 when I did a short stint in Gagetown back in 80.

The M38A1s and the M151s both were subject to rollover when put into a full turn at speeds of around 25 or 30 mph. The difference was that on a M38A1 it took almost 3 turns of the steering wheel to get there, while an M151 could do it in 1-1/2 turns. Also, the suspension of the M151 did not give the driver the feel of just how fast he was turning.

I have owned a number of M38A1s over the years, and also had an uncut M151A2 for about 10 years. Quite frankly, the M151A2 sucked when trying to climb a sand dune. On the other hand, the engine was far superior to the Willys F head. I did not like the transmission on the M151s (weak) nor the 12 universal joints on the prop and axle shafts.

Nomenclature
 

The official nomenclature for the Canadian used (excluding the US supplied UN and ICCS vehicles) post-Second War 'Jeeps' was

M38CDN

M38A1CDN1
M38A1CDN2
M38A1CDN3

M151A2

Iltis

The MUTT portion of the US M151A2 MUTT designation means Military Utility Tactical Truck.

Here are a couple of scans of original Canadian manuals that show the official designation. I have yet to find any primary source documentation that refers to the Canadian Jeeps by 'Pattern' although if there is something out there I would like to see it. The CFR number does start with a two-digit year prefix which does indicate the year the vehicle was taken into service, but is not a 'pattern' indicator.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...orsManualT.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1Operators.jpg

The terms "67 pattern, 74 pattern " etc were cdn nicknames for the jeeps, and not official. But their use was widespread. I think I may have some messages around where they were referred to as such, but certainly not in any publication.

By the way, I don't think the term M38A1 CDN1 was used either, but rather simply M38A1CDN, since at the time they would not have known that we would be making further purchases of this pattern vehicle (with some improvements).

And here's the 1971 operator's manual for the Truck, Utility: 1/4 ton, 4x4:
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...cdn_manual.jpg

But not until one looks inside they find out it's the manual for the M151-series truck!
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...manual_001.jpg

H.

There were a few different DND operators manual for this truck, but the one you show was the most confusing. It showed all 3 models of the M151s, along with a bunch of variants, and of course had the french translations in it so the book was twice the size it needed to be.

Back in those days, it was always nice when the french side of a manual was in the back half of the book. You could undo the binder and remove those pages, thus lightening you overall bookweight by more than half. Eventuall I think the DND caught on to this and started printing the pages side by side or even with a Englsh column and a french column next to it on the same page.

The other odd part of the books back then were the empty pages with "this page intentionally blank" on them.

Since we're on the topic of of nomenclature, I want to throw this out there.... Keeping in mind I am a through and through "Jeep Guy" even though it wasn't always in MV's. Keeping in mind i'm not debating just MV's here.

What makes a "Jeep" a "Jeep"?

I have continually read that the M151 line is not a "Jeep". What makes it not a "Jeep"?

Is it because of who manufactured it?
There are a few other vehicles out there that have been endowed with the title "Jeep" that have never physically had Jeep scripted into the Body. There were many other "Jeeps" that were not built by Willys, Kaiser or the Jeep Corporation that are still "Jeeps". I realize much of this was to do with the war effort and was contracted to other production lines. There are plenty of Ford "Jeeps" rolling around out there that don't even raise an eyebrow.
My 76 "Jeep" CJ-5 rolled off an assembly line owned by AMC, the same parent company that built both of my 74 M151A2's. In this case, for the A2 anyway, it was built by a company that built "Jeeps" and owned the rights to it. Had the M151 ever been sold to the public in civillian form by AMC, i'm sure it would have been under the "Jeep" product line.

I just find it entertaining how some (not speaking directly about this forum) are very emphatic about the M151A2 not being a Jeep. Other than rumour, urban legend, hearsay or the big fish story that grew, what was the legitimate reason for the M151A2 not being considered a Jeep?

If it is not because of the manufacturer, is it because of the vehicle itself?
The M151 is an open top, 2 door, 4 seater, 1/4 ton Utility Vehicle. So technically, it has all of the same characteristics as the earlier "Jeeps" including the M38A1 which was in service during the same timeframe. It does have a Uniframe and Independent Suspension, which is remarkably different than the other "Jeeps", but one could argue that can't be the sole reason for why its not a Jeep.

Another arguement could be that brand names and vehicle type may have crossed paths here. The M715 is also a "Jeep" but shares none of the characteristics of other "Jeeps" as its a 5/4ton truck, but has "Jeep" scripted into its tailgate. So if the term or title "Jeep" is not determined by its legal brand name, who has the last word as to what is and what isn't a Jeep?

I'm not trying to aggrevate anyone on here, I just find it interesting when people say that the M151 is not a Jeep. If this is in fact the case, maybe there are a few other "Jeep" platforms in the MV community that aren't "Jeeps" either.

So, someone put this to bed for me.

As a final parting shot, when I registered my M38A1 for the road, the DMV called it a 1967 Kaiser, 2 Door, Convertable, Utility Vehicle on the registration. Seems they didn't think it was a "Jeep" in the legal sense either :)

Scotty B

I completely agree with you on this.

Generally everything starts its life "even" so to speak. I just think its interesting how the M38A1 was dubbed CDN, CDN2.... Rather than M38A1, M38A2.... as the A1, generally means "Amendment 1" and so on and so forth. The M38A1 is significantly different from the M38, enough one could argue, to have gotten a different "M" number all together, rather than just an amendment number.

The term "Pattern" is a generally excepted way of differentiating the generation of all sorts of "Army" equipment not just vehicles. In fact its almost the preference it seems sometimes.

Its kind of like referring to vehicles by their "Class"...
Walk up to any Soldier and ask him what an M35 Truck is, and the response could be anything. Most have no idea that its a 2.5ton MLVW unless they were bored enough to read the data plates while co-driving in one. Sames goes for my old M38A1 CDN2. When I told buddies I used to own an M38A1, they looked at me as if I had a toaster on my head. When I called it a 67 Pattern Jeep, the light came on.

When it comes to weapons, thats a whole other ball of wax :)

Well, here they are...

The Transactions are pretty much complete now. Just waiting on Mikes to be brought up from NB, and the other from AB.

Mike M's 151 will providing the "Heart" of the Restoration as its quite complete, the other will be donating its body and misc pieces.

I think I may go ahead and do some minor work to get it registered and rolling and then put a few miles on it while its still warm out.
Its definately going to need some "temporary" OD paint before it goes on the road.

Its going under the knife this winter for the actual Resto.

I found something on the G that answers my questions regarding what is a Jeep...

"Whats in a Name "MUTT vs Jeep"

FWIW, I wasn't trying to antagonize anyone here, just looking for some friendly debate. Nevertheless, I think i'll leave it alone.

I can hardly contain myself as my first A2 will be here on Saturday. It left Red Deer yesterday:

Here are a couple snaps of my Cdn3 I took today. This is my daily driver for when I go to get the mail, and often, if I am bored, it will take a ride through the local forest. As such, the body is not pristine. I also dropped a tree across the hood last year while cutting firewood, and I have not got around to sandblasting and painting the replacement hood yet.

This Jeep has had the typical light armoured recce modifications to it. These include the wire cutter bar on the front bumper, and the GPMG mount on the right side. It also has the IKEE (Installation kit, electrical equipment) for the 524 set). The "support our troops cadpat magnet on the left corner is not an official marking. The bent fenders, while not an official light recce modification, were pretty much standard on all the recce jeeps after 15 years of hard service.

Anyway, this is the textbook 3 colour "by the book" Cdn cam job.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nfield0002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nfield0003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nfield0001.jpg

Thanks for the snaps Rob,

Although its an M38A1, like you said before, its still the correct 1/4 Ton cam pattern.

I've decieded that pattern will be my end state in paint.

Well, I finally got a hold on the Red Deer A2. After flushing the fuel system and doing a few checks we got it fired up. It runs quite well right off the bat, but it looks like i'm going to need to buy a Timing Light/Tech Dwell Meter as both the Carb and Distributer are recent NOS installs and havn't had any fine adjustments done yet.

Rob, you wouldn't happen to have a line on another AMU Mounting Bracket like you have on the rear left corner of your M38A1? This 74 has all of the holes and wear marks from one that was removed when it was demiliterized, and i'd love to get another one.

Actually, while i'm at it, if anyone has any lines on an RT524 with Tray, or a PRC77 Set and a 2060 Tray, i'd be very interest in them. I'd like to try and get a Radio installed with the Restoration.

Scotty B

Scotty
There are still a few of the corner brackets left out in the local military scrapyard. I'll try and remember to grab one next time I am out that way.

Haha... You da man Rob.

I was surprised that it had one originally as from what I understood, the AMU's were attached to the ROPs. There is no mistaking the 6 holes on the left corner.

If theres anything you need that I might have "access" to, let me know.

Scotty

You done know it homey!


The roll cages were not installed until a few years after the M151A2s were in service. As a result, they may well have the holes from the corner mount or from the mount over the spare tire carrier. Of the 30 M151A2s I bought, a few had the over the tire mount, but only 1 or 2 had the corner mount, and it may well have been left over from the pre-rollcage days. The problem with an AMU or an ATU on the corner mount was that the antenna would get broken against the rollcage if the antenna was bent or whipped forward. If you are going with the rollcage, then I would suggest you don't bother with the corner mount.

Was thinking about that after I replied. Wouldn't be able to secure the Ant the usual way tied to the front, but would have to go to the side. Since you mentioned it, the AMU that mounts to the spare tire bracket would be better. This way it is (ant) basically clear of the Top, but not dependent on the ROPs. If you could scrounge up one of those and anything else Rad related I would be very interested. I have a little goodies budget for these things :)

Scotty

JEEP name?
 

I recall reading somewhere that the name Jeep was derived from "GP", meaning general purpose sometime during WW2. If Willys hadn't put a trademark on the name Jeep after the war then this discussion would probably not be taking place.

Paul

That was one theory as to the origin of the name, another was that it was derived from the cartoon character from that era which could adapt/transform itself to whatever was needed.

I have seen a newspaper clipping of 18 pdrs being towed here in Shilo sometime in the late 30s, and ref is made to the trucks as Jeeps. Since this predated the evolution of the Bantam/Willys/Ford, and Canada did not use the term "General Purpose" (GP), I think we can discredit the 1/4 ton truck from being the original Jeep.

Cartoon
 

Yes I had forgotton Eugene the Jeep!

Colour image
 

Here is a colour image from Lahr, Germany, dated 1975. Two M151s and an M38A1.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/lahr1975.jpg

Those are about the nicest Cdn M151A2s that I have ever seen. They have not had their heaters installed yet, and do not have any of the Cdn mods like the second mirror, the brush guard, or the 8 coats of brushed on paint.

M151a2 colours
 

Hello,
I have some photos of the M15 in Moose Jaw sitting in front of the armoury.

I assembled that Jeep. The body tub was one that was written off in Winnipeg, and cut into 4 sections if I remember correctly. I welded it back together and installed various components off some of the 30 M151A2s I bought out of Shilo back in the 80s. That jeep is reasonably complete, although most of the brakelines were cut from back when I was removing the suspensions. I used to strip a MUTT bare in 4 hours. On a good day, I would get 3 and a half of them done.

I would love to see photos of that one. I never did get a photo of any of my work from that collection. Several of the pieces there were from my collection, and many others in that display were my work.